I got caught by a group a few weeks back and joined in their rotation uninvited. As far as I could tell, they were happy to have another body who was willing to pull his [vast] weight up the front.

I had never given and thought (until reading your post) as to what is acceptable in such a situation. I spent a fair amount of time being a Beach rd wheel sucker until I got some decent fitness and spend most of my time out front (not necessarily by choice – I just don’t seem to get caught by such groups as much) – and as far as I understood things being a relative newb, is that you always try to lead out when/where you are able to contribute.

Do you see the dilemma for those intermediates who are unfamiliar with the rules/etiquette?

One rider (and only one) appeared to want to “protect the rotation” as you put it and asked to cut in. I would have thought anyone willing to NOT suck wheels on Beach rd was welcome.

I do accept the risk to the group if some rider joins who really doesn’t know what they’re doing and can’t figure out their role in a single rotation (it’s not exactly rocket science).

Next time, I’ll ask to join… will report what happens.

(article excerpt)

“… reciprocating with more enthusiasm than the original nod. Very uncool.”

@Karolinka
Just gotta blow off some steam. This winter has even the hardest locals bitching. About a month ago, we had gone 270 days without 3 days of sun in a row.

Bleh. I’d be bitching.

See y’all next week, as I’m off for a long weekend of glorious riding in the high desert, followed each afternoon with soaking in hot springs, and re-hydrating on fine IPA’s.

Sounds like a perfect antidote. Enjoy!!

If you don’t mind me asking, where in the PNW are you? I’m in Portland, and despite below-average temps recently (which I don’t mind, the heat kills me) it hasn’t been the worst spring ever for riding. I started picking back up my mileage in April and it’s been pretty great, actually.

And it sounds like you’re headed to Bend, perhaps. If so have fun! I’m trying to get over there this summer for some road riding.

@Jaja

Since you didn’t know the guy I wouldn’t spend much time worrying about it. Let the MAMIL (love that term) have his dreams of cycling awesomeness.

@Karolinka
It was 11C and raining again today. Whilst I love living in the Pacific NWet, when is it going to stop fucking raining!!??!! I’ve grown tired of Rule #9, and Rule #7 isn’t even in play yet……….Oh, wait, Rule #5, I’ll quit bitching now.

It doesn’t SOUND like you love it, lol!

HTFU this, HTFU that… Rule #5 is core & key if you’re serious RE. making progress; & adherents spend large parts of their lives on the road. But let’s face it – if there isn’t some part of you that enjoys suffering on the Freight Train of Pain (in the weather where you live) – that’s a lotta suffering for… what?

You probably aren’t being that serious – the occasional blow-off-steam gripe is perfectly allowable (IMHO), especially if it’s a pseudo-subtle way of letting ppl know “look what –> I <-- deal with, bitches!" I tell ya, tho - I haven't budged any further from the equator for a reason. I can't function well in the cold (not just on the bike; 24 hrs a day)(& I actually revel in the heat. I think I'm reptilian). I don't just hate cold & every thing that goes with it; I think I've trod this mortal coil long enough to know - tried to "relax, don't fight it," wear appropriate clothing, blah blah blah... NO. So, if you really love it there, remember that, don't fight it, and.... HTFU! Either that, or change may be in order!

That’s the beauty of dwelling in the realm of the “V”. There will always be somebody slower and always somebody faster than me. But I know the kilometers I’ve logged. I know the intervals I’ve done. I know my love of all things “V”. What do you care what some wanker on and Ultegra Scott thinks of you? Actually there is a certain comeliness to how your situation was left. You know you can crush Ultegra Scott dude. He thinks otherwise in his vainglory. Then one day the commuter on the weird bike will bring him back to brutal reality.

Everything in life is a dichotomy. A temporal and a spiritual. Can I resist chasing down the rabbit in front of me or riding somebody off of my wheel because I can? Of course not. But at the same time I acknowledge everybody out on two wheels (Ok, maybe not the rectumbant rider) yet if engaged in conversation I (try to) never knock anybody’s ability or equipment. When it’s all said and done I hope that thoughts of Cyclops are as such – “Man, he’s fast, but he’s an awfully nice chap too”.

@mcsqueak
…Nevermind that I can’t ride in a bloody rotation, and the moon on a stick would be more realistic than a f*cking echelon.

Sorry for the rant, you’ve brought it all out ! That and several glasses of wine while finishing an assignment.

Oh, I am so pleased and happy to see the words “rotation” and “echelon” used as in the manner that you are on tv not watching it, but have yourselfs rotationed and echeloned! even used if in a rantishment way! I AM with my people, alhamdulilah!

(howza weather? not a contest, just like hearing about the other hot spots; i feel a fraternityish type of thing. even tho’ i’m sure it’s outlandishly hotter there. we got 102 F today, 80% humid. wahoo!)

@Karolinka
While I mostly agree with you, it’s a personal rule of mine to nod snob anyone who’s obviously out on a training ride with a $10,000 Di2, Zipp 808 equipped Cervelo, wearing a skinsuit and pointy helmet going 25K. And tri-geeks. Sorry.

I have a vision problem that makes these lamentably appalling sights impossible for me to see coming toward me, therefore not nodding or equivalent isn’t a snub, it’s a symptom of my handicap.

Interestingly, I CAN see them if I come up from behind. Which absolutely requires reeling them in as quickly as possible & passing (if lucky, on whatever the closest incline resembling a “hill” – florida, ya know) – the pass must be at pace significantly faster than theirs, smooth and effortless (appearing), no audible loud breathing/bike rocking (should it have been a long reel in, or if they were actually making decent revs, requiring effort)… but esp. when delivering a slap down: very polite “RIDER ON YOUR LEFT,” casual finger lift (i NEVER look) as i gliiiiiiide by.

…I’m wit ya, m’friend! Don’t gotta apologize to me!

I would hope that someone riding the same “route” as an event ride, presumably on open public roads would at least have the sense enough to not take advantage of the rest stops with food/water as that is what you’re paying for when you enter.

What makes people like you join events without paying for the entry? It’s rude and weird and laying the smack down on people who have paid doesn’t prove anything except that you’re a tightwad who’d rather do a Buysman than do the right thing.

Yeah I peeped your rides on that evil, evil group we set up… fast and flat! Some of those sections look like they’ve been flattened by a team of engineers. There is one “pan-flat” section of road here, that’s actually used for a yearly TT race, but gosh it’s boring, and windy.

Though in Abu Dhabi I guess you’ll take what you can get. Props for keeping up the cycling there. And as much as it pains me to say, I could see the appeal of TT gear for long, flat rides.

I joined a local cycling club last year so I can get my group ride on when I feel in the mood. Not a whole lot of folks mismatched to their rides, but one guy did show up with a Renovo hardwood bike one weekend. I couldn’t decide if I was jealous or disgusted. He rode well though, so I guess that’s something.

@frank

No worries. I was shooting for a humorous mental image of me in all my old “Anti-V” gear. The only non matching kit I would ever be seen in now is my Pink Floyd Wish You Were Here jersey. But even then I would be rocking the Assos bibs so I think it works.

Come to Abu Dhabi… a frightening combination of middle age, trendy triathlons and huge disposable incomes.

We regularly get people in aero helmets, even skin suits. The wannabe roadies are just as bad – hey I’m 20kg overweight but I can buy some carbon fibre and DA to make up for it. Nevermind that I can’t ride in a bloody rotation, and the moon on a stick would be more realistic than a f*cking echelon.

I still say hello to them though – too small a place not too. I just have no compunction in dropping the f*ckers.

Sorry for the rant, you’ve brought it all out ! That and several glasses of wine while finishing an assignment.

As a general rule I say hello (i.e. a nod or finger lift) to anybody I see out in Abu Dhabi, but when in London I wouldn’t do it in a commuting situation but would when out on training rides and encountering someone clearly doing the same.

But it wasn’t a fun ride, it was *serious training*!

I’ve seen plenty of folks going down the local MUT on their aerobars (ugh) but I have yet to see someone on the open road with a TT helmet.

@mcsqueak
Um, in the PetroMetro, road rage and the brandishing of firearms is pretty normal. It really is a freak show down here.

Ha, very true. Damnit, the Canadians are right about us!

@paolo @Nate @mcsqueak @pakrat
I’m so damn friendly it’s ridiculous. I’m like Forrest Gump waving at Lieutenant Dan. I’ve met so many friends that way. “Hi!” “Hey, nice bike.” “Beautiful day.” “Sure is…”
I’m such a dork.

(Remember peeps, this is opinion sharing; not saying everyone should think like me!)

You are not a dork! The planet could use more people like you. It would make for a MUCH more amusing planet. Also more pleasant. IMHO.

Being so concerned with such a simple gesture & how it reflects on your “coolness” – seems a frivilous reason to to justify making the world even meaner than it is.

I thought worrying about being “cool” & hanging out w/only the “cool” people because you’re worried uncool ppl’s uncoolness will rub off on you was something we left behind in… well, college, at the latest. The cool of the ultimate cool person isn’t affected by the cool/lack of cool of those around him/her.

I’m not lumping ALL cycling etiquette, Rules, etc. under “cool” & throwing the baby out w/the bathwater, mind you. And what we’re talking about – a miniscule gesture in a split second in time – doesn’t fall under the “you are known by the company you keep” truism, let’s be serious.

Sure, I can be a cycling snob, from a distance… or if it’s something someone’s doing that’s endangering people. But anybody who gets out on a bike, no matter how fred-ish – kudos to them!

I think it’s more than obvious to anyone who knows anything that a “serious” athlete is exactly that by the way he/she looks/rides/behaves. Feeling one has to snub people in order to build oneself up/set oneself apart – bordering on very nasty. IMHO.

I can’t say I ever thought much about this nod/wave thing. If someone coming towards me is obviously “out cycling,” even if they’re wearing a t-shirt & look dorky – & aren’t miles away across a 6 lane highway w/a gigantic median – they’ll get a relaxed, slight raise of a hand from the bar (that’s how we do it down heah in da south) – or depending on what house the moon is in, maybe the four finger lift pakrat described.

…Unless I’m on a chunk blowing mission & am a bit occupied – even then, if I see them (which I think often I mayn’t; too focused & probably experiencing tunnel vision & spots in eyes), unless my nose is on my top tube & I’m close to reaching my goal, I’ll attempt a multiple finger lift, w/out really thinking about it.

Or unless as mcsqueak said, there’re so many cyclists out’n’about it just gets ridiculous. This is pretty rare around my patch of the woods, tho – lotta cyclists, but lotta miles of road out there to spread ’em out on.

And no matter who it is, if they acknowledge me first, they’ll get the wave (or fingers lift). It just has ever been thus. It’s how my momma brought me up. It’s civil. Civility and treating people like fellow humans is “cool,” in my book. It doesn’t make you less cool.

And heavens, it never entered my mind to feel sorry for passing anybody (quite the opposite; can’t help it). I’m out doing my ride, they’re out doing theirs, so what. But it’s polite, and safe, first off, to let them know you’re coming up (“RIDER ON YOUR LEFT!”).

And when *passing* someone, even if it’s Grandma on her cruiser, I always give the friendly low key hand/fingers wave.

I figure, two miles down the road a rock truck might squash me. Grandma might be the one with the cell phone to call the EMT to come scrape me off the road.

What goes around comes around.

“and well you know that it’s a fool
who plays it cool
by making his world a little colder”

You never know what us jerky Americans will do. I think Canadians believe we all drive around and just shoot each other all day.

And I’m still bummed about the kid getting nod snobbed.

Since August 2009 I’ve wondered, but I have to ask…you know that’s a joke right? You know I didn’t nod snob the poor kid on the drag-a-bike, right? Just sayin. You know, for the record.

MrLowell:
@frank

Fucking hammer up to them and right as you’re about to pass them, shift into the big ring, pop onto the tops, make your arms stick straight like you’re rolling down the boulevard on a sunny Sunday afternoon, and pass them like you were just casually blasting up the hill like that. Keep it up until you’re around the next bend or turn-off and spend the next 3k gasping for breath.

This is my preferred method just about every time I go around anyone. If I think I can get someone behind me and keep them there I go for it with gusto while exuding the impression of one who is Casually Deliberate, even if it is just pretend.
On the other hand, there’s not a lot that I find to be more embarrassing than passing someone only to be passed back a short time later. If I think I’m simply a better climber than they are and feel that it is likely that I may be passed on the next extended flat or descent than I try to be polite and pass slowly and politely, but I always make a point to hide the hurt whatever the situation may be.

I was feeling somewhat cocky on tonight’s ride and poped into a higher gear right after I passed some dude in FSA shorts and a Castelli top while going up a hill. He was having a hard time of it, too – probably means I’ll get a bee in the eye on my next ride for being deliberately mean. I traditionally don’t climb well for my weight so I usually don’t pull such stunts, but I’ve been feeling really good the past two weeks. Like I may peak sometime this year for once. Don’t know what I’m doing different from last year, but whatever it is seems to be working.

Marcus:
Ride along a place where there are a gazillion riders – nod snobs all round…

Indeed. If I’m passing several people every minute I’m not going to sit there nodding at everyone. I need to save my energy for those climbs, you see.

Also, yeah – no jumping into pace lines with strangers unless you’ve asked – seems like common sense to me, as I’d rather not get taken out by some rando.

My first bunch ride I had absolutely no idea of what to do. An old guy saw this. He calmly told me how it went then rode beside me and, when we were in the wind, explained about the pace we should be travelling, how to be careful not to half-wheel, how to drop back when I was done, and to make sure to introduce myself to all the other members of the bunch. Great advice, and I rode regularly with them for a year or so.

@Jeff in PetroMetro
Well we all know that a nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat.

Say no more…

Ride along a place where there are a gazillion riders – nod snobs all round…

This arises where you have a bunch of riders known to one another going along in a rotation.

You pass a rider or two who then jump on the back (which is fine – it doesn’t cost a candle to light another wick…) however some of these riders may then start going through the rotation uninvited. They may be the bestest bike handlers in the world but you don’t know that. So you try to protect your bunch by asking said riders to stay out of the rotation.

Half the time the interlopers will happily abide by your request (you gotta say it nicely – which can be hard in a fast rotating bunch) but some others react like you have just told them to go and fornicate with a stray cat.

Shows pretty ordinary manners in my book just to jump in without so much as a “by your leave”…

Discuss?

Fucking hammer up to them and right as you’re about to pass them, shift into the big ring, pop onto the tops, make your arms stick straight like you’re rolling down the boulevard on a sunny Sunday afternoon, and pass them like you were just casually blasting up the hill like that. Keep it up until you’re around the next bend or turn-off and spend the next 3k gasping for breath.

This is my preferred method just about every time I go around anyone. If I think I can get someone behind me and keep them there I go for it with gusto while exuding the impression of one who is casually deliberate, even if it is just pretend.

On the other hand, there’s not a lot that I find to be more embarrassing than passing someone only to be passed back a short time later. If I think I’m simply a better climber than they are and feel that it is likely that I may be passed on the next extended flat or descent than I try to be polite and pass slowly and politely, but I always make a point to hide the hurt whatever the situation may be.

@frank
I follow the Merckx training plan of “ride more.” If there is a carrot up the road, and I’m not out on a 5+ hour ride, well I’m going to try and catch them, or ride them off my wheel. I find it a much more fun and effective means of laying down The V. Far more interesting than actually trying to do disciplined intervals. Talking to cyclists with actual training plans makes me happy to avoid such things. Training for ultra-distances, I just work on doing 75% of the distance. Otherwise, I take headwinds as an excuse to suffer and hills and climbs as the grace of Merckx permitting me the most beautiful experience in the world.

@frank
And I’m still bummed about the kid getting nod snobbed. My attitude is this: they get the same acknowledgment as any other worthy rider. No more, no less. What’s a kid going to appreciate more: some clown giving him/her a big smile and stupid wave or some guy in cool kit who treats him/her like another serious rider. I think we have a responsibility to foster the next generation of V (not just breed it and then blimp).

Now, in a race, obviously they’re fodder, but sometimes, not always, on a training ride, I slow down so that I can turn onto a different route before I catch them.

Yeah, yeah, okay, time to do hill repeats until I can taste the blood for penance for my sins.

@frank

Gonna do exactly that next time…cheers.

But not from the tri-guys. They really do need to go to their “Happy Place”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZAF75hwPUQ

So when I pass some poor soul labouring on climb I am never sure of the correct etiquette because I think I’ll probably be hated anyway.

True. Just roll by and be friendly. And not too out of breath. You’ll be hated, so you might as well do it in style.

Conversely if you want to grind someone into the dust becase they nod snobbed you before the climb what’s the best way? Ride by in silence or give them a cheery “morning” as you pass?

Fucking hammer up to them and right as you’re about to pass them, shift into the big ring, pop onto the tops, make your arms stick straight like you’re rolling down the boulevard on a sunny Sunday afternoon, and pass them like you were just casually blasting up the hill like that. Keep it up until you’re around the next bend or turn-off and spend the next 3k gasping for breath.

I don’t nod at recumbent riders because I don’t think they’d see it, since they’re about eye level to an ant way down there.

I also wave a cars that stop for me, even when they are supposed to, just to try and spread some good feelings around. As great as Portland is for riding, the local media just LOVES to sensationalize bike-vs-car “culture” garbage and I want to try and counteract that. I don’t get much crap from motorists while out riding and I’d like to keep it that way.

As far as passing people while climbing, that doesn’t happen often – but I usually just give an “on your left” and keep on my way, trying to keep up the facade that I’m hurting less than they are. If the climb is more of a gentle incline sometimes I’ll say “hi” or “nice day for a ride” or something of that sort.

Well we all know that a nod’s as good as a wink to a blind bat.

But, I have to say, I still am judicious. I’ll give you a nod so long as some of the Fundamental Rules are observed. Some samples below.

You are:

1. Rocking a YJA and Paniers, but it’s pouring rain. Nod given.
2. Aboard a singlespeed and tight jeans, but you’re grinding up a cobbled 20% grade in Seattle with a sneer that’s have grimace and half smile. Nod given.
3. Piloting your full carbon USPS Team Replica Trek in your full USPS Kit around Greenlake amidst the rollerbladers and dog walkers and you’re not going noticeably faster. Nod refused.
4. Unless your alias is @BentLuvr, you’re riding a recumbent. Nod refused.

But to be nod snobbed by a cyclist not in strict adherence to the rules!? That must be atoned for. So trained I have become in spotting violations of the order, I quickly point out a few violations for the offending cyclist to contemplate for the remainder of their ride. “Nice saddlebag ya douche nozzle.” Or better yet… “sweet stack height.” And when applicable the ultimate “nice cockring on your arm!” Keep in mind you must be able to lay down copious quantities of V when yelling these insults…. you never know how far you may have to outsprint the brut whom you just offended.

it existed because we were a small brotherhood. Nowadays, frankly, we’re a dime a dozen.

I am fortunate to live in an area (Nor. Cal. Bay area) where we are at times simultaneously both… :) On the east side of the bay the climbs are brutal, exposed to the sun and wind, and require significant withdrawals from the Bank Of V. When riding on the east side, you get and give a nod. The Peninsula is festooned with bikers and fixie fairies commuting between critical mass events and Bike Parties . Nod at your own peril.

I’m not sure you should post that image… it’s, just… well – it would be AWFUL!

Stay tuned for that.

Its like on the BMW motor cycle I still give the salute to Harleys even though I hate them (and probably hate the guy riding them but I’ll never know), they are there facing the same shit.

On the other hand I envy Franks absolute adherence to all the Rules so that he can be secure in being a “snod”, I on the other hand have no confidence in my appearance so will continue to wave at all – and I hate to admit – even a recumbent.

I think it’s important to note that this post isn’t about appreciation; I appreciate anyone on a bike – I even appreciate that the popularization of fixies has gotten more people out on their bikes. This post is about taking a critical – if humorous – look at the micro-environment of cycling.

Anyone who ventures out on a bicycle shares a basic interest with every other person on a bike: a desire to get out and power your own two-wheeled vehicle. Whether you’re 85, 35, or 5; laying on your back, riding in a saddle, or in the Egg position, we are all part of one social group: people who love to ride bikes. Beyond that, we seft-select into groups we identify with – or, indeed, groups we’d like to identify with. There are people out there who can hop along a railing on their front wheel, do a complete 360 and land on a parking post with their back wheel before hopping to the sidewalk. While this is pretty impressive, I don’t self-select with them and don’t have any tangible aspiration to. Then, there are pros. I don’t self-select with them, either, but there is definitely a part of my phsyche that would like to; in truth, they would Nod Snob me.

This post is about the micro-environment of the cycling world. There is an inevitable hierarchy amongst social groups; even dogs – who cannot possibly judge one another – work within a complex social hierarchy. The fact is, a guy on a recumbent is going to self-select more strongly with another rider on a recumbent. When I see a fit dude with shaved legs out at the Farmer’s Market, I immediately recognize him as another cyclist who values being a cyclist more than fitting into traditional social norms. When you boil away all the jokes and sarcasm, what remains is the fact that when I’m out on my bike, I self-select with – and nod – riders whom I feel reflect my perception of myself – or whomever I, as a cyclist, aspire to be.

http://cpfarrow.blogspot.com/2009/08/mean-people-snub-others.html

If they are on two wheels, they are not in a car and that means that they can relate somewhat, who knows maybe its a midwestern thing, but certainly I am not to cool for school to say hi to another cyclist.