That being said, McTyke, 100-160km might sound like a lot, but it’s not much in the context of cycling: The pros race 200km races regularly (Tour stages are often that long), and some Classics are over 250km. Of course, this is not to be taken as a personal insult – they’re long distances for me as well – but it’s not extreme for a single ride. RAAM riders or Randonneurs do multiple times these distances – and it’s usually in these races where you see all sorts of experimental setups to reduce fatigue. The same probably applies to triathletes – many of whom are open to experimental ideas and fads, and their only goal on the bike is to suffer as little as possible to save strength for the run – mid-foot placement might do just that. It remains an experiment, of course.

None of that for me, though. After a few hundred pedal-strokes in each position, changing by increments of a millimetre at a time, I ended up with my SPD-SL cleats precisely in the middle of their adjustment range, which means the ball of the foot is about 3-4mm in front of the axle center. According to the live Retul measurements, my stroke was most magnificent in that position. It also feels the most natural to me, and doesn’t seem to overstress anything or force my to change my preferred technique.

Here’s another thought to throw into the mix. When walking/running I believe the achilles tendon stretches and contracts – energy is stored in it and is recovered with each step, providing some extra forward propulsion. Wouldn’t the same be true during a powerful pedal stroke? If so, wouldn’t you lose this by using a mid-foot cleat position?

Oh, awesome… I chortled. Good job.

@Calmante

@Vin’cenza

Yes mouse. The “mud-scraping” pedal stroke is acting thru the calves. There is an advantage in certain zones of the pedal stroke instead of relying on only power acting in 2/5 of the total stroke.

One thing has little to do with the other. Later tonight, I’ll explain myself with some diagrams… But you don’t use your calves to “mud-scrape;” you use your hamstrings.

I want abuse, but you’re just going to give me diagrams. How disappointing.
Can’t wait to mark them up to show you how I’m right. Heh.

Ah… It’s going to have to wait. I want to read about Meg’s experience first. Here’s a little preview for you, though, with some added abuse, just ’cause you asked so nicely.

@Vin’cenza

Yes mouse. The “mud-scraping” pedal stroke is acting thru the calves. There is an advantage in certain zones of the pedal stroke instead of relying on only power acting in 2/5 of the total stroke.

One thing has little to do with the other. Later tonight, I’ll explain myself with some diagrams… But you don’t use your calves to “mud-scrape;” you use your hamstrings.

I want abuse, but you’re just going to give me diagrams. How disappointing.
Can’t wait to mark them up to show you how I’m right. Heh.

Here’s my first real ride:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/157344473

Mtnbikerfred

I’ve decided to put this issue on hold until we hear from Meg Fisher about her experience.

Yes mouse. The “mud-scraping” pedal stroke is acting thru the calves. There is an advantage in certain zones of the pedal stroke instead of relying on only power acting in 2/5 of the total stroke.

One thing has little to do with the other. Later tonight, I’ll explain myself with some diagrams… But you don’t use your calves to “mud-scrape;” you use your hamstrings.

I can see that a proper fitting might work but the experimentation process that I have in mind is going to require a number of long rides and testing saddles as well as positions. I also want to work on my core strength first so that I can be sure that I can rule out any other factors. I just don’t have the time to get any of that in at the moment.

If your current position works, of course it can wait. In my case, without a guru to guide me, I kept fiddling with my fit until I found something I thought was right, but still brought me pain. I had the saddle bit right – instinctively, trial and error brought me to the biomechanically-correct position, which I discarded since it didn’t “look pro” (well, it just looked wrong – saddle slammed forwards on a setback post). The bars are where my trial-and-error just didn’t work, since I tried to solve each problem or pain individually, rather than look at it holistically and consider the entire body and my own limitations (I was very inflexible at the time). I had aches in my back which got so bad after 30-40km, that I wouldn’t be able to turn my head the day after a century. There was no way I could do the ride that way.

Enter the Day 1 of the 600km ride: 220km horizontal, no pain whatsoever. Enter day two, and apart from that bolt of pain the first time I sat on the saddle, I was still painless through another 220km. By day three, my palms became sensitive (tingling when applying pressure – this remained for a few weeks), but my back was alright, and I still had the power and will to sprint between gaps and pull the worn-out weaker riders back to the group.

There’s nothing more reassuring than knowing your setup has been verified by tracking your body’s motions at millimetre accuracy.

Once the Keepers Tour is out of the way, I might start with some experimenting and possibly a fitting (now is not the time to be messing with something that works reasonably well and might not be “wrong”).

When you properly analyse every angle and measure every variable (as you do on a Retul scanner), you can know exactly when that “faster” position ends up hurting you. On my TT bike, my body’s natural instinct was to hang off the saddle, in order to get the arms level, with a 90-degree elbow angle (both comfy and pro!) – with the right saddle (a thoroughly anti-V Cobb saddle), that position seemed both comfy and aero, but the Retul fit showed a flaw: I had my knees too far out front over the axle, overstressing the ligaments and losing power because my quads had to work at inefficient angles. By moving my torso back a bit we reached a better position for my legs – and had to bring the aerobar assembly back (and slightly up) to compensate and return my arms back to their (correct) initial position. Surprisingly, my back is now flatter (by exactly 2 degrees) – more power, less injury-risk, and more aero – in one strike. Conversely, my road-bike position changed from a setback post and short stem to a medium (110mm) stem and inline post – and while the saddle-to-bar drop is slightly shorter now, the actual body sits lower since the elbows aren’t locked straight anymore; again, more power, less discomfort, more aero.

Having seen the cleat conversation here, we also discussed their placement on my new White Princesses, as well as crank-length. I ride 175mm cranks, since that’s what my 58cm road-bike and 60cm TT bike came with – but I’m open for changes. In short, the fitter’s opinion (as a former racer and current biomechanics researcher) is that placing the axle slightly behind the ball of the foot is a good idea for those that ride with the ankle down on the downstroke, but that extreme placements are not the best of ideas for regular cycling. What’s irregular? Ultra-distance, where nobody really knows, or triathlons, where the reduced work done by the calves might help keep them fresher for the run. In both cases, he recons the idea is highly unresearched and, just like 155mm cranks now and 190mm cranks in the past, might end up a fad. The foot is a very strong device, and the calves are easily up to the task (IE, not the limiting factor) of transmitting whatever V your quads may be delivering.

@Calmante

Depending on which story you believe, that may or may not also be the reason Saxo Bank had their pre-season camp there…

That was one hell of a week. Many of my friends went on a ride they held in the northern Galilee, or to watch the mock-crit (more of a parade) on the cobbles of Jerusalem – I believe it was Nick Nuyens who slipped and crashed, but I’m not entirely sure. Later that week, my mom happened to meet the entire Saxo Bank team chilling at the pool in her small desert town.

I started off with the cleats too far forward and then couldn’t get comfy in a central position so I ended up sliding them all the way back so it feels like the ball of foot is just in front of the pedal spindle. I’ve had about 8 fairly short rides using them and after the 3rd ride I started getting aches in the upper guns that felt like the muscle groups were working in a slightly different way or were being worked harder. These aches soon passed and I now ‘seem’ to be putting out more power and going faster than with my previous shoe / cleat position. Now this could be for a few reasons, the shoes are considerably stiffer than my previous ones and I could just be applying more V-power, but I’ve had no aches in my calves at all which makes me think these are maybe working less now?

I have a fairly unscientific to most things in my life including bike fit so will leave the cleats where they are for the time being and see how I get on with them. The real test will probably come on a longer ride.

You have the audacity to disagree with me, you fucking tool? You can go fuck yourself. KIDDING! I’ve got nothing but love for you, mouse.

I do disagree, though. Let me think on it a bit before I post a rebuttal…

@Nate

@marko
This. Like most things its a compromise. Farther back is good for endurance; farther forward is good for top end power, sprinting and attacking.

I will go on this advice @Nate to move my cleats (Mavic) forward as much as 5mm this weekend. I am 6’3″³ and truly wear a size 43, but racing with a 44 to allow foot swelling and to improve my dainty appearance. Cleats are kept pushed all the way back to feel it right on the ball of my foot. My sprints and long duration and intensity have been acceptable, but not memorable. Always want to see if there is more potential mechanically wherever it can be unturned. My favorite quote again (not my quote) “Races are decided over very small differences.”

Heh, I’m 4 inches shorter and a foot size longer than you. I have no contribution to make, just wanted to carefully point that out.

I definitely don’t believe in over doing it with moving the cleat back, because it really is necessary to have enough foot length to provide a nice round stroke. However, the calves and other muscles in the lower leg do not provide any power to the pedals. They are merely fighting your upper leg, regardless of how massive they are. This isn’t my independent opinion…

Steve Hogg says it best on his site, if you haven’t tried it, you just don’t know.

Ah, dear sir, I must respectfully disagree.

Your suggestion that lower leg calf muscles are merely stabiliser muscles is, I think true for some of the time, and for some people, most of the time, depending on your stroke, and how you employ it.

@Mctyke I think is quite right. “Ankling” is a very important technique that can provide additional power above and beyond what the large muscle groups are providing. Refer to this link to Cycling Tips Blog for further explanation/info.

From my experience, as I’ve become more adept at using this technique (and it takes plenty of practice) I’ve noticed substantial increase in power whilst climbing.

I think of it this way. It’s like adding a short lever onto the end of a long lever. It enables two possibilities:

a) The application of a greater collective force of two levers (one large, one small) to be applied to the crank than using the one large lever alone, or…

b) An amount of force to be applied to the crank that is equivalent to what the large lever might apply, but employs the smaller lever to contribute to the the system and thus conserve energy from what the large lever would otherwise have had to contribute.

As the two levers are employing separate muscle groups, it is drawing energy from two energy sources as such. (granted, one much smaller than the other. That’s why this particular technique has a reasonably short half life)

The point is that this is something that has to be learned and practiced. All of your muscle systems can contribute to propelling you forward, from your core stability, to hip flexors, to the large lever muscles, to the small lever muscles. Some systems are just more obvious than others, and it’s too easy I think to focus only on the large power contributors.

eg I’m 5,11, 11 stone 3 lbs and use Two 10 kg weights (dumbells)…lunges, steps up on a chair or on you kness to standing with alternate legs (killer without weights), big strides either side with your legs meeting in the middle, squats. Start off with 1 set of 15 and just increase as you see fit.
There’s loads of variations. You can do it at home aswell.Best music for weights…Pantera.

@Buck Rogers
BsC in Biophysics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. This is why I chose it, apart from the fine dames and high standards of teaching there.

Depending on which story you believe, that may or may not also be the reason Saxo Bank had their pre-season camp there…

@tessar
Welcome, and I feel your pain, mate. Overnight (literally) I went from preparing to take on the world sporting-wise to spending the next 12 weeks in a wheelchair. It is very difficult to wait out your injury, but worthwhile in the end.

The point about breaking bad habits is also well taken; sometimes a real break is worth a lot. But similarly, that break can also lead to other bad habits, like eating and drinking too much.

Be patient. Have discipline. VLVV.

Cheers! I’m pretty lucky as far as my body is concerned, since at my tender age of 20 my metabolism still copes with 3-4 full meals a day (plus snacks) and keeps my 1.87m frame at an ultra-lean ~65kg. I have to say I’m pretty much back at full fitness – and right on time, spring started yesterday which we celebrated with a 130km ride with just the arm-warmers, and the legs are finally burning from the first sunburn of the year.

And as far as Living La Vie Velominatus, I’ll have to admit that my choice of university for next year was heavily affected by the multitude of quiet, desolated >8% climbs surrounding it.

@Vin’cenza
6’3″³ and you have 43 sized feet!? You sure they aren’t hooves? Or did you remove your toes to save weight?

I am like a prancing Centaur (ba-duh-BING) especially when I wear the black BONTs. I am still thinking that this is an advantage for me in cycling and racing ?? I look like a marionette.

Steve Hogg says it best on his site, if you haven’t tried it, you just don’t know.

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/

@marko
This. Like most things its a compromise. Farther back is good for endurance; farther forward is good for top end power, sprinting and attacking.

I will go on this advice @Nate to move my cleats (Mavic) forward as much as 5mm this weekend. I am 6’3″ and truly wear a size 43, but racing with a 44 to allow foot swelling and to improve my dainty appearance. Cleats are kept pushed all the way back to feel it right on the ball of my foot. My sprints and long duration and intensity have been acceptable, but not memorable. Always want to see if there is more potential mechanically wherever it can be unturned. My favorite quote again (not my quote) “Races are decided over very small differences.”

You have to flex your ankle some in order to have a smooth stroke, but I think the most efficient system is to keep your ankle relatively stiff while its loaded. Have a look at ANYONE sprinting or climbing out of the saddle and the ankle is stiff for this reason.

By and large, movement means loss. If there is friction, the movement will cost energy so whatever energy gets stored in the system will be less by the time it comes back out.

Anyone here strictly for or against weight training, while we’re on the topic of training. I’m really thinking of taking advantage of my works “gym” (an all in one style machine, some freeweights, a big pilates ball or whatever they are, and a treadmill which I will ignore).

The reason I ask is because if its all about power to weight ratio then wouldn’t working out the legs a bit help things out? Specifically hip flexor, quads, glutes, and hamstring exercises? At the least my guns will look more intimidating…

I’m already doing well on the weight aspect, I’m actually less then a couple pounds away from loosing the Clydesdale status, should easily be below once the weather turns warm enough for the group rides and commuting.

I’ve come around on weight training to benefit cycling.

When I first started riding, I thought “cycling is all I’ll ever need!!” but the reality, especially as an office worker that spends 5-10 hours a day sitting, is far from that.

I mentioned it on another thread, but I started training with kettlebells recently, under an instructor that use to be a Cat 1 road/track cyclist. I’ve only been doing it for three weeks now, but I can already feel a positive change. I can actually feel muscles that I have never felt before, being used during these workouts, and I already feel that my back is more flat when I ride.

I’m going to keep it up for a few months and see how I feel about it at that point. I’m doing this specifically to benefit my cycling, and there is no downside that I can see. Especially because it’s a workout that isn’t designed to build unnecessary muscles.

@Nate
The core is an area I really need to target, my lower back is my limiting factor when it comes to time in the saddle, not my legs. While I’m doing off the bike work to strengthen my core,I can’t see any reason not to throw in some leg work.

This has made a monster difference for me. I’ve been doing just simple stuff – leg lifts and the like – while laying in bed watching TV. Three sets of 50, 60, and 75 and my core is so much stronger its incredible. I can engage the pedal much sooner in the stroke and pull it around much better through the dead spots.

My core sucks but I try and be aware of my posture during the day and my new indoor trainer forced me to keep the core tight. Still needs more consistent work though.

@frank

@Calmante

This is also why I believe in non-traditional cleat placement, ie. as far back toward the heel as possible. Having large feet is a liability in cycling, and there really isn’t much science to the method of placing the ball of your foot over the axle. The shorter you make that lever, the less your lower leg has to work to stabilize your foot. I wont go so far as to recommend mid-foot cleat placement, like Joe Friel does, but I won’t knock it, either.

Interesting, I never thought of it that way. Through experimentation, I’ve moved my cleat rather far back – not as far as possible, but it’s behind the ball of my foot. It wound up there because it seems to be cause less fatigue on long rides. Makes perfect sense given the lever position. Very cool point.

I’m not so sure about this. If you move the cleat back too far, won’t you lose the ‘ankling’ effect and the extra power that can be supplied by the lower leg? Doesn’t a fluid stroke need the ankles to flex during pedalling? How can you ‘dance’ on the pedals like Pantani, or even Contador, if the pedals are beneath the middle of your feet?

Its funny you mention Pantani. His pedalling style is what got me moving it back. He doesn’t do this ankling effect that you’re talking about – those are more the styles of Hinault and LeMond. Dancing means that you are certainly still flexing your ankles, but not dramatically.

But to your point, of course – don’t over-do it. You don’t want you cleat on your fucking heel.

I recall reading somewhere the Cav’s power numbers aren’t that impressive. He is so fast because he is aero as hell.

Since no one has mentioned it, I’ll toss out the training advice attributed to Eddy Himself: ride lots.

@King Clydesdale
I’ve seen programs advocating weights in the offseason for strength. Another this would be to get on the pilates ball and do core exercises. A strong core provides a solid based for the guns and helps the body endure longer rides.

Didn’t PVP advocate resistence training for Masters athletes? His only cavet was,”resistence training on the bike.”

Hungarian split squats are my favourite (as in least favourite to do) along with box jumps between sprint sets on the trainer.

I want to puke just thinking about it.

And Frank, great article – training is personal, so don’t fuck it up by trying to do it on a group ride!

I wasn’t for a moment suggesting that he wasn’t going that fast, just putting some numbers against @King Clydesdale’s estimate of cadence and marvelling that he makes it look somewhat effortless on cobbles and going uphill.

I’ll never go that fast but I’d like to think that I could maybe develop enough style so as not to look an electrocuted frog when I hit my own personal top speed.

Yes. Smooth and fast – when Kurt Hairnet’s (Canadians will get the joke) flying 200m record was finally broken a few years back, the cadence set was about 185 on a 53/11. Cav also gets carried to the sprint at an already incredible 55+ speed before he needs to take over. That helps

Since no one has mentioned it, I’ll toss out the training advice attributed to Eddy Himself: ride lots.

@King Clydesdale
I’ve seen programs advocating weights in the offseason for strength. Another this would be to get on the pilates ball and do core exercises. A strong core provides a solid based for the guns and helps the body endure longer rides.

This. It’s gotta be a balance. If you wholly follow calmante’s logic then why not just put cleats under heels and take the foot out of the equation? And, tell a rider with massive calves that all they are doing is stabilizing their foot and see what response you get. You need your calves for kick, among other things. The fulcrum of the foot is not at the end either, it’s about a third from the end with force being applied in both flexion and extension as tendons and muscles exert force on either side of the ankle. The assertion above is overstated.

Moving the cleat back, as stated, does provide benefits in fatigue reduction but it does come at a cost. I personally have moved mine back over the years as well but when I’ve gone too far back by stroke feels choppy and less smooth.

@Calmante

This is also why I believe in non-traditional cleat placement, ie. as far back toward the heel as possible. Having large feet is a liability in cycling, and there really isn’t much science to the method of placing the ball of your foot over the axle. The shorter you make that lever, the less your lower leg has to work to stabilize your foot. I wont go so far as to recommend mid-foot cleat placement, like Joe Friel does, but I won’t knock it, either.

Interesting, I never thought of it that way. Through experimentation, I’ve moved my cleat rather far back – not as far as possible, but it’s behind the ball of my foot. It wound up there because it seems to be cause less fatigue on long rides. Makes perfect sense given the lever position. Very cool point.

I’m not so sure about this. If you move the cleat back too far, won’t you lose the ‘ankling’ effect and the extra power that can be supplied by the lower leg? Doesn’t a fluid stroke need the ankles to flex during pedalling? How can you ‘dance’ on the pedals like Pantani, or even Contador, if the pedals are beneath the middle of your feet?

@snoov

@Dr C
I read that the thing about Cav that makes him stand out is his ability to kick twice!

@King Clydesdale
Watching that clip I’d put the cadence in the 70 to 80 zone. I thought cadence was measured by a full rotation of the crank, not every pedal stroke. If I’m wrong, I await correction.

He’d have to be turning a huge gear to be doing any meaningful speed at 70 – 80 rpm, that’d be 45 – 50kph at 53 x 11. Given a lead out train most of us could hit that for 20 seconds.

Hell, even I can hit 50kpm on the flat for a few seconds without drafting anything and I’m just an enthusiastic recreational cyclist! That Cavendish video shows the Manx Missile turning about 18 full pedal revolutions in 10 seconds as he passes Renshaw – a cadence of 114 sounds about right. KC – maybe your computer is a bit slow!

Frank – 8 hours solo? Phew. I really enjoy being & cycling alone, but that is one long day in the saddle. Nice work!

Ah, its nothing. Dark-to-dark rides are more impressive when its the height of summer. 12 or 14 hour rides will remind you of what you’re made.

This is also why I believe in non-traditional cleat placement, ie. as far back toward the heel as possible. Having large feet is a liability in cycling, and there really isn’t much science to the method of placing the ball of your foot over the axle. The shorter you make that lever, the less your lower leg has to work to stabilize your foot. I wont go so far as to recommend mid-foot cleat placement, like Joe Friel does, but I won’t knock it, either.

Interesting, I never thought of it that way. Through experimentation, I’ve moved my cleat rather far back – not as far as possible, but it’s behind the ball of my foot. It wound up there because it seems to be cause less fatigue on long rides. Makes perfect sense given the lever position. Very cool point.

@snoov

@Dr C
I read that the thing about Cav that makes him stand out is his ability to kick twice!

@King Clydesdale
Watching that clip I’d put the cadence in the 70 to 80 zone. I thought cadence was measured by a full rotation of the crank, not every pedal stroke. If I’m wrong, I await correction.

He’d have to be turning a huge gear to be doing any meaningful speed at 70 – 80 rpm, that’d be 45 – 50kph at 53 x 11. Given a lead out train most of us could hit that for 20 seconds.

The bunch does gallop in the 75kmph range; the Candence Calc does indeed point this at 114, though from the video he looks to be spinning lower than that. Can’t be bothered to count it out, though. Regardless of what the actuals are on that clip, those are the numbers these guys hit when they’re on. Very impressive. I spin out my top gear sometimes on descents. The steep ones.

Pros are freaks.

Stretching & flexibility are two things I need to develop far more than muscles.

eightzero – “Here’s my training plan: ride the fucking bike.” I like this plan! Keeps it simple.

Mikel – “For 95% of us (those of us with jobs, kids, and the other complications of a non-pro), Train Properly can be summed up in six words:
Ride more.
Sleep more.
Eat better.

End of.”

Also, very nice & simple.

Frank – 8 hours solo? Phew. I really enjoy being & cycling alone, but that is one long day in the saddle. Nice work!

The key for me has been to always keep cycling new – I’ve only been at it awhile so for the first five or so years I was learning as much as I could about bikes, my body, training, etc. Then I started to get pretty good. So, I started doing group rides, any I could find. Then I started being selective about them. (too much data talk on many of them.) Last year I took up cross racing. That REALLY gave me some variety.

I also see life getting in the way more & more quite soon – marriage, job, kids. So, for now I’m just enjoying myself, having fun, riding a bunch, not overthinking my training. I’m also really, really pumped I’ve stocked up on bikes before marriage so that the Budgetatus isn’t a shared one.

I’ve got n+1+1+1+1cx+1commuter all set up & don’t have to bargain to get ’em.

@eightzero: A-Merckx

Dead on, that is the point when you see both how mentally hard and physically trained you are. I have been on both ends, and it is demoralizing to not be able to answer this challenge. The key to improvement is not accepting this loss as the status quo in future similar settings.

On Frank’s crazy 8 hour solo escapades: I think the mental strength and confidence from enduring these Bataan Death March rides give the rider mental benefits well beyond any physical benefits. And a tough mind, when coupled with a well trained body can often overcome stronger riders with soft melons.

@King Clydesdale
Apologies for my not being able to count, he just doesn’t look like he’s pedalling all that fast!

General left field thought – why is Cav faster over 100m than anyone else?

I was doing my usual route home and thought I’d sprint the last 200m – knocked 15secs off my PB (only 1.4Km, so no big deal) but I felt sooo slow on the sprint – probably maxed at 50kph? on the flat

What makes one go supersonic fast like Cav – is it body position, cadence, power?? (apart from the obvious answers on a postcard….)

Sorry to sound so unknowledgeable, but if I don’t ask, I’m never going to get any faster

I guess apart from proper training, it’s your genes that decide if you have the potential to be as fast as MC or not. So it’s not your fault but rather your parents’, if you cannot sprint faster than 50kph.

Anyone here strictly for or against weight training, while we’re on the topic of training. I’m really thinking of taking advantage of my works “gym” (an all in one style machine, some freeweights, a big pilates ball or whatever they are, and a treadmill which I will ignore).

The reason I ask is because if its all about power to weight ratio then wouldn’t working out the legs a bit help things out? Specifically hip flexor, quads, glutes, and hamstring exercises? At the least my guns will look more intimidating…

I’m already doing well on the weight aspect, I’m actually less then a couple pounds away from loosing the Clydesdale status, should easily be below once the weather turns warm enough for the group rides and commuting.

I noticed you didn’t mention anything about lower leg strengthening. Although you don’t really generate power from your lower leg, these muscles are responsible for stabilizing your ankle and foot, and would stand to get the most benefit from targeted weight training. Feet and ankles are poorly designed for riding, since the fulcrum of that particular lever is located at the very least efficient point, right at the end. Anything you do to strengthen the muscles in that area will make your power transfer much more efficient.

This is also why I believe in non-traditional cleat placement, ie. as far back toward the heel as possible. Having large feet is a liability in cycling, and there really isn’t much science to the method of placing the ball of your foot over the axle. The shorter you make that lever, the less your lower leg has to work to stabilize your foot. I wont go so far as to recommend mid-foot cleat placement, like Joe Friel does, but I won’t knock it, either.

@Dr C
I read that the thing about Cav that makes him stand out is his ability to kick twice!

@King Clydesdale
Watching that clip I’d put the cadence in the 70 to 80 zone. I thought cadence was measured by a full rotation of the crank, not every pedal stroke. If I’m wrong, I await correction.

He’d have to be turning a huge gear to be doing any meaningful speed at 70 – 80 rpm, that’d be 45 – 50kph at 53 x 11. Given a lead out train most of us could hit that for 20 seconds.

If he’s doing 114 in 53 x 11 that’s 73kph. On a slight uphill and from memory on cobbles (albeit small city cobbles but not smooth tarmac) for 20 odd seconds.

@King Clydesdale
Watching that clip I’d put the cadence in the 70 to 80 zone. I thought cadence was measured by a full rotation of the crank, not every pedal stroke. If I’m wrong, I await correction.

Tomorrow will be a rest day for me. I just realised the best thing about a rest day is that it means you’re getting enough riding time to warrant one. I love spring!!

I don’t remember what bike you’re riding either Dr. C, but I’m sure his shoes, frame, bb, and wheels are stiffer than yours, and probably more aero, so a higher percentage of his power is making it to the pavement and less is spent fighting the wind.

He also gets a lead out, meaning the speed at the start of his sprint is higher, meaning he is expelling less energy to get to the speed he starts his sprint at.

I used to commute daily 125 miles each way to my office when I lived in North Carolina

Jeepers, is that actually possible in the same day?

A few things. Most good sprinters were or are track cyclists. Track cycling requires a fluid yet powerful pedal stroke. How fast you can spin the pedals is equally as important as how much power you put out.

If you’ve never seen this video before watch Cavs feet:

Using a metronome I clocked his cadence at 114 rpm, and you know he’s in a big gear. You only spin that fast using the entire pedal stroke to generate thrust. If you want to get better, do lots of one legged pedal drills and practice riding at a higher cadence. Also some short efforts in a big gear will help your muscles train to make more perfect circles, start slow and get faster.

I’m not great at these things but sprinting is definitely my strong suit if I were to have one.

I was doing my usual route home and thought I’d sprint the last 200m – knocked 15secs off my PB (only 1.4Km, so no big deal) but I felt sooo slow on the sprint – probably maxed at 50kph? on the flat

What makes one go supersonic fast like Cav – is it body position, cadence, power?? (apart from the obvious answers on a postcard….)

Sorry to sound so unknowledgeable, but if I don’t ask, I’m never going to get any faster

The reason I ask is because if its all about power to weight ratio then wouldn’t working out the legs a bit help things out? Specifically hip flexor, quads, glutes, and hamstring exercises? At the least my guns will look more intimidating…

I’m already doing well on the weight aspect, I’m actually less then a couple pounds away from loosing the Clydesdale status, should easily be below once the weather turns warm enough for the group rides and commuting.

@Calmante
Welcome back.

Thanks, Broberto.

Also, speaking of Calmante, is he still in the penalty box?

Calmante wouldn’t like this fella.

@frank

What, no side-spur down to Sea-Tac? After the cogal I stopped to grab some fast food and coffee for the drive home in Sea-Tac, and there was a meth head in the Jack-in-the-Box that probably could hook you up with some killer performance enhancers.

I don’t keep my passport updated to let me go down there. Shit, the only reason I keep my pass valid to get to the East Side (Bellevue/Kirkland) is because of work.

My Merckx, Seattleittes are homebodies and hate going anywhere. I used to commute daily 125 miles each way to my office when I lived in North Carolina, and a trip to the nearest reasonable grocery store was 45 miles round trip. Now the grocery store that’s 4 miles away seems like a trek and we generally just park the car on Friday and don’t move it until Monday.

I agree with the over-whelming sentiment of the preceding 123 posts… Great article and great thread- best in a while.

I got myself on a race focused training program in November 2011 and have seen massive improvements in my relatively weak abilities. The structure of the training removes some of the spontaneity of the rides, but my coach and I have worked hard to make them fun… I rarely do the same workout more than twice and month and often we re-work their structure so they aren’t too repetitive. My only advice is try to keep it fun- if it sucks you’ll only suck it up so long before throwing in the towel.

Totally – and that’s where doing it a long time really helps. Just like with learning to recognize different pains – learn to recognize different types of “I donwannaanymore”. Your reluctance can be for a hard ride you know you have to do and that will make you happy afterward. Or your reluctance can be because you’re burnt out and the sport has stopped being fun.

For me, I usually find that the second case comes alongside not being interested in other aspects of cycling. I didn’t want to ride today – it was early, before work, blah blah but I was meeting a friend and I did it anyway. And after the ride, instead of putting the bike in the basement, I put it in the living room because I wanted to look at it during the day while I worked. So my reluctance was more just that I didn’t want to ride today, not that I’m burned out.

When I stop wanted to watch a bike race, or pass over the Rouleur and pick up the New Yorker, those can be signs that I’m getting burned out. Not that I only ever read cycling literature, but the point is that when I’m into Cycling, I have to decide to read or watch something else. When I’m burning out, I have to push myself to write, read, or watch Cycling stuff. For me, that’s my toggle – that’s how I realize I need to back off and find the fun again.

Luckily, the seasons tend to do that for me. Spring and Summer, I am all geared up and ready to slam it every day. Fall comes as a welcome change to focus on long, low intensity stuff. Then by the time we hit Spring, I”m done fucking around and ready to start hurting my legs again. It works.

What, no side-spur down to Sea-Tac? After the cogal I stopped to grab some fast food and coffee for the drive home in Sea-Tac, and there was a meth head in the Jack-in-the-Box that probably could hook you up with some killer performance enhancers.

Frank – I’m still curious how long that most recent solo 200km ride in the rain took. Damn, that’s really far to do solo, but I know you enjoy riding solo as well.

It takes about 7 and a half to eight hours, which is not stellar from an average speed perspective, but keep in mind there are 16 categorized climbs!

I got myself on a race focused training program in November 2011 and have seen massive improvements in my relatively weak abilities. The structure of the training removes some of the spontaneity of the rides, but my coach and I have worked hard to make them fun… I rarely do the same workout more than twice and month and often we re-work their structure so they aren’t too repetitive. My only advice is try to keep it fun- if it sucks you’ll only suck it up so long before throwing in the towel.

@wiscotAbsolutely, getting out on the bike kills may birds with one stone so to speak. It’s cathartic in a psychological sense, it’s fun, it’s fresh air, it’s out of the city, it’s fun, the views are spectacular, it’s spending time with the mates, it’s getting some time alone, it’s good for collecting sun rays and manufacturing vitamin D, it’s fun, it’s thrilling, it’s challenging, it’s easy, it’s fun, it’s hard, it’s still fun it’s LVV.

Yes. This. Except for being out of the city and the spectacular views. I’m in Houston, so those two don’t count. But the rest is exactly it for me.

End of.

In fact, I just took the cadence sensor off my bike. Fuck it. Can’t read the display anyway, and I’d rather be looking at my velomispouse’s ass. The HR meter I keep, because a few BPM difference on a climb makes a huge difference to me. Cadence? Crikey, until I can find a SRAM cassette combination that goes 11×78, it doesn’t make a farthings bit of difference. I suck as a climber. But then I suck at sprinting, rolleurs, and time trialing. Other that that, I’m a great cyclist. Or will be in two months time.

♫♫ Cog-als are the place for me.
Bike livin’ is the life for me.
Land spreadin’ out so far and wide
Keep mountain biking, just give me that road outside.

Cog-als is where I’d rather stay.
I get allergic smelling Huy.
I just adore a fizik view.
Keepers I love you but give me whatever’s new.

…The chores.
…The stores.
…Fresh air.
…Pedal Square

You are my bike.
Good bye to my life.
Co-gals we are there.

-bump bump- ♫ ♫ ♫

@grumbledook

The Time-Crunched Cyclist; I hate Chris Carmichael (for no reason other than that he was Pharmy’s coach) but this is an interesting new approach to training that lots of people are talking about – more intensity, less distance, etc. Maybe I’ll try it some day, but it sounds like hocus-pocus to me, who has spent his life doing super long rides (10-12 hours) to get fit.

I think it works great for those guys who only do crits or short (90 min or less) road races. I do not like that type of racing. For me, I like it when you have been suffering with the dudes next to you for three hours and then someone drops the hammer on a climb and there is still another hour to go and you know that you have to kill yourself NOW or you might as well go home. To me, THAT is racing. Not 30 min crits in the States that someone made up for our USA short attention span theatre lives.

Have you ever been to a CX race, racing yourself or just watching? It’s a lot of fun either way, even if it lasts less than 60 min. … And you may have read in some comments here that a few of us just don’t have the time to train for couple of hours, several times a week. So short+intense is the only option left. … But still, I do love to go for a 10 hour ride in the Swiss alps once or twice a year. This is Zen!

@grumbledook

The Time-Crunched Cyclist; I hate Chris Carmichael (for no reason other than that he was Pharmy’s coach) but this is an interesting new approach to training that lots of people are talking about – more intensity, less distance, etc. Maybe I’ll try it some day, but it sounds like hocus-pocus to me, who has spent his life doing super long rides (10-12 hours) to get fit.

I think it works great for those guys who only do crits or short (90 min or less) road races. I do not like that type of racing. For me, I like it when you have been suffering with the dudes next to you for three hours and then someone drops the hammer on a climb and there is still another hour to go and you know that you have to kill yourself NOW or you might as well go home. To me, THAT is racing. Not 30 min crits in the States that someone made up for our USA short attention span theatre lives.

@mcsqueak

@SuperFed

Looking at your rides recently, I don’t think you’ll have any problem killing the 160k. I agree with Calmante; have a bit of fun! Stick to the plan you have, but if you’re flying up a hill, maybe move one cog down and try to kick it over the top just a wee bit faster.

@scaler911

Awesome link, thanks for sharing. Makes me feel a bit better about all the time I spent on the trainer during the winter, doing 1 minute and five minute intervals.

Sure, Here’s the link to the article that was written by Kirk; http://biketechreview.com/performance/supply/47-base-a-new-definition

Good article. I like him.

@grumbledook

A couple of years ago, I discovered that cyclocross would be the ideal cycling discipline for my situation. And I can highly recommend it to everyone who likes to ride the pain but has too little time to Train Properly for road racing. CX races usually last less than 1 hour (except for elite riders and pro’s). So you don’t need a lot of 3-4 hour rides to be prepared properly, plus you can compensate some lack of fitness with superior riding skills (at least in the hobby and C/B amateur categories). But you can still enjoy the competition in a bicycle race. Of course, I still do both, road cycling and cx. But with road cycling alone, my performance would be much worse than it is now.

This is one of the reasons I’m thrilled about CX – also the automatic interval training it will give. As much as I love hitting a climb full gas or rolling along tout a droit, structured interval training is not something I manage to be disciplined about.

The Time-Crunched Cyclist; I hate Chris Carmichael (for no reason other than that he was Pharmy’s coach) but this is an interesting new approach to training that lots of people are talking about – more intensity, less distance, etc. Maybe I’ll try it some day, but it sounds like hocus-pocus to me, who has spent his life doing super long rides (10-12 hours) to get fit.

I love the long ride; the determination it takes me to not climb off is payed back in spades at the sense of satisfaction of having finished it. Take my local Seattle 200km-er; I ride by my house three separate times before heading out for the last leg; when its pouring rain, the temptation is strong. And I love the way it brings you closer to your machine. The way your body feels when it’s been pedaling all day is sublime!

@The Oracle

VLVV*
*(I saw roadslave use this Velomiscrit abbreviation, and I move that it be immediately added to the Lexicon).

Done.

I used to go for long-distance rides together with a friend when I was still a PhD student. This is now about 10 years ago. We usually did these rides in the first half of the season with a peak in May/June when we did at least 1, but mostly 2 200+x km rides per week plus 2 or 3 shorter rides. My average distance per ride in these “golden years” was 110 km. But due to the fact that I did a lot of other sports at this time, I never managed to exceed 10k km p.a.. Nevertheless, I guess I am still benefiting from this period of proper training, especially since it helped me in becoming very good in terms of your point #3.

Wiscot posted the info on the Cogal page today. Hope that you can make it!

@SuperFed

Looking at your rides recently, I don’t think you’ll have any problem killing the 160k. I agree with Calmante; have a bit of fun! Stick to the plan you have, but if you’re flying up a hill, maybe move one cog down and try to kick it over the top just a wee bit faster.

@scaler911

Awesome link, thanks for sharing. Makes me feel a bit better about all the time I spent on the trainer during the winter, doing 1 minute and five minute intervals.

Sure, Here’s the link to the article that was written by Kirk; http://biketechreview.com/performance/supply/47-base-a-new-definition

@wiscot, @snoov
Those sound like Tabata intervals “” you do 20 seconds as absolutely hard as you can, rest 10 seconds, repeat. I tried them once; after four reps I was about ready to throw up.

Not these ones he was recovering until his breathing was under control, about 5 mins. It was for general fitness, not training for anything in particular.