I’m the sort of bloke who generally embraces change, but the exception to this is my position, for which I reserve the “If it ain’t broke” maxim. Interestingly, one of the staffers in this month’s Procycling has had to admit that the fit he undertook in June’s issue actually left him down on power, so much so that he has gone back to his original position. Most fitters will tell you that they can improve your position, without actually defining what that improvement will be.

@Geraint

Being an engineer by education I have a fundamental desire to build a jig, but this would a) assume that one bike has an ideal setup, which is probably untrue, and b) deprive me of the dissatisfaction – rectification – satisfaction – and repeat cycle that seems dissatisfying but in reality is part of the fun.

Perfect. Especially the last bit. +1 badge to you my man. The enjoyment is in the journey and the small victories along the way; not in actually answering the question.

Definitiveness is very comforting but it is also very boring.

Boring? No, the point is to ride, not fluff around with endless variations of positioning. The “dissatisfaction – rectification – satisfaction – and repeat cycle” sound like a pain the in arse, not to mention annoying. I want to, and do, climb on my bike and get riding feeling comfortable,’ at one’ even. To ride the whole time with thoughts of “oh this is too high, that is not far enough” would drive me crazy and detract from the experience of the ride. I have a position that is both fast and comfortable and well, I’ll just stick with it thanks. I’ll change something if I happen to start feeling uncomfortable. Enjoy your fluffing about with your saddle cause I’ll be in the bar having a drink.

i have fun with it and it is good training to push a heavy hipster bike around up hills and down.

just trying to get this thread back on track…. And do not believe any of Gianni’s stories. Before the age of 30 he was an inveterate sheep fr.,.,er and did massive amounts of  cleaning products Way before that became fashionable. Some where in the archives I have photographic evidence… specifically, the sheep.

The most important measurements for myself:

– Bars to saddle tip

– Saddle setback

– BB to Saddle

I’m hoping to pass along my self-acquired knowledge to a buddy of mine who recently picked up his first ‘real’ road bike and get him in the ballpark of a decent fit.  I’ll be sure to sneak in a few teachings of ‘The Rules’ along the way, too…

@Puffy

Some folks are sensitive to mm changes, some are not. I for one, am not.

After buying a new bike and setting it to match the old one I rode it for a a few months. Position fine. I then decided to drop the 5mm spacer out from under the stem that wasn’t there on the old one… I’ve been riding it like that for many many months. To me the position feels the same….

I envy you but also am sad you don’t get to experience the satisfaction of getting it right.

The experience of getting it right seems to involve countless hours of getting it wrong first.  There is some satisfaction in that, I guess, but I generally think I have other more satisfying things to do with my time.

@Rob

@Frank, not quoting post #32 because, well I’m just not, it boarders on all wrong for the right reasons that I don’t understand but may have to do with late night shenanagans in NJ, now years ago! Cheers.

It might be the biggest compliment I’ve ever paid anyone, so it probably has to do with the LNSNJ2011. I was joking to @Gianni about that just the other day. Good times, noodle salad.

Man, it’s hard to believe Helen Hunt has an Oscar when Emily Watson doesn’t. It’s an injustice of the same magnitude as Oscar Pereiro having a Tour win and Poulidor not.

I got into road cycling on a fixed gear about 1.5 yrs ago. Fitment was “seems good enough [buys online]”. Then, I made it worse (better?) by trying to emulate bikes I saw on pedalroom, none of which was for a rider who looked anything like me (about 60 lbs overweight). Stem slammed, narrow bars, etc. But I got on , and rode, and it all sorta worked out.

When I bought a road bike with an actual proper fitting included, it just felt weird. Too comfortable. And then after putting in miles on the road bike, I felt real wrong on the track bike with 38cm bars when I rode it to work the next day.

Nowadays I like taking both out for their different personalites. Is either fit “wrong?”
I think they’re suited to their purpose. It’s nice to feel comfy for rides over 50k. Bombing traffic in a riding position like a monkey fucking a football works for the “tarck” bike.

Horses for courses camp, here.

I really, truly, hope you meant “tarck” bike and that it wasn’t a typo. Into the Lexi with that, I say. Classic.

@Frank, not quoting post #32 because, well I’m just not, it boarders on all wrong for the right reasons that I don’t understand but may have to do with late night shenanagans in NJ, now years ago! Cheers.

It might be the biggest compliment I’ve ever paid anyone, so it probably has to do with the LNSNJ2011. I was joking to @Gianni about that just the other day. Good times, noodle salad.

@pneaumme

@frank Yes. As well your tone of professional arrogance is Very Hors. We appreciate this.

Thank you for your excellence in trolling.

In defense of Frank, you opened a Pandora’s box of nerdness with that first post. I’m just relieved my comment on anal retentiveness flew under the radar.

Its sad because s/he’s so new I just can’t get my dander up enough to bother with kicking up a full blown Nerd-Down. If s/he’d have introduced themself properly as some sort of expert or established some kind of credibility first we might have had some fun.

@Bespoke

@Ccos

@pneaumme

@frank Yes. As well your tone of professional arrogance is Very Hors. We appreciate this.

Thank you for your excellence in trolling.

In defense of Frank, you opened a Pandora’s box of nerdness with that first post. I’m just relieved my comment on anal retentiveness flew under the radar.

Don’t be so sure. Everything, and every article, that’s recorded on this site is available for resuscitation. As can be evidenced by the posts made in the wee hours.

This is always true and point to be contended with. Just because I don’t have time / don’t choose to give you shit about something doesn’t mean it went unnoticed. The V works in absolutes; what you put in comes out. You put shit in, you get shat on. Put gold in, you get shat on.

Wait a second. That’s not right.

My ‘technique’ for this is to have a few bikes with different geometries and frame sizes, and have the utopian ideal of getting them all set up the same. I then use each ride as a sort of pairwise comparison, comparing the position of the current bike with the last one I rode. If I dislike something about the setup of the current bike, I change it. If I think something about the setup of the current bike is better than the previous one, then I go out on the previous one again for a quick spin and then maybe change something about that.

Done properly, this could keep me occupied with bike setup for at least one lifetime. But in reality, after several iterations, they’re all pretty close, and I don’t think I’m that sensitive to minor discrepancies anyway.

Being an engineer by education I have a fundamental desire to build a jig, but this would a) assume that one bike has an ideal setup, which is probably untrue, and b) deprive me of the dissatisfaction – rectification – satisfaction – and repeat cycle that seems dissatisfying but in reality is part of the fun.

Perfect. Especially the last bit. +1 badge to you my man. The enjoyment is in the journey and the small victories along the way; not in actually answering the question.

Definitiveness is very comforting but it is also very boring.

@wiscot ” I’m assuming Mr Trenchcoat in the back is handling the spare bike.”

Or stealing shit while no ones looking. It’s like the crowd photos where the one dude not smiling is the one who’s gonna shoot the president or something. How come he’s squandering his opportunity to stare at the Prophet’s bike with rapt attention like everyone else?

Because his name is “Ugo de Rosa” and he will be setting up Merckx’s own bike building business for him a few years later.

@Teocalli

Yet despite it all it did not always work so precisely for The Prophet. I like the bit in a Sunday in Hell where he gets a spanner from another team car and gives the saddle a bit of a whack before tightening and setting off again. The benefits of a newspaper strike impromptu stop if I remember correctly.

I was thinking of the exact same scene. He borrowed the spanner from Brooklyn no less IIRC.

Best example of being Casually Deliberate EVER.

@freddy Nice one Red

@strathlubnaig +1

@freddy,  Now do your curtsy!

@Frank, not quoting post #32 because, well I’m just not, it boarders  on all wrong for the right reasons that I don’t understand but may have to do with late night shenanagans in NJ, now years ago! Cheers.

When I bought a road bike with an actual proper fitting included, it just felt weird.  Too comfortable. And then after putting in miles on the road bike, I felt real wrong on the track bike with 38cm bars when I rode it to work the next day.

Nowadays I like taking both out for their different personalites. Is either fit  “wrong?”
I think they’re suited to their purpose. It’s nice to feel comfy for rides over 50k.  Bombing traffic in a riding position like a monkey fucking a football works for the “tarck” bike.

Horses for courses camp, here.

@pneaumme

@frank Yes. As well your tone of professional arrogance is Very Hors. We appreciate this.

Thank you for your excellence in trolling.

In defense of Frank, you opened a Pandora’s box of nerdness with that first post. I’m just relieved my comment on anal retentiveness flew under the radar.

Don’t be so sure. Everything, and every article, that’s recorded on this site is available for resuscitation. As can be evidenced by the posts made in the wee hours.

@frank Yes. As well your tone of professional arrogance is Very Hors. We appreciate this.

Thank you for your excellence in trolling.

In defense of Frank, you opened a Pandora’s box of nerdness with that first post. I’m just relieved my comment on anal retentiveness flew under the radar.

My ‘technique’ for this is to have a few bikes with different geometries and frame sizes, and have the utopian ideal of getting them all set up the same. I then use each ride as a sort of pairwise comparison, comparing the position of the current bike with the last one I rode. If I dislike something about the setup of the current bike, I change it. If I think something about the setup of the current bike is better than the previous one, then I go out on the previous one again for a quick spin and then maybe change something about that.

Done properly, this could keep me occupied with bike setup for at least one lifetime. But in reality, after several iterations, they’re all pretty close, and I don’t think I’m that sensitive to minor discrepancies anyway.

Being an engineer by education I have a fundamental desire to build a jig, but this would a) assume that one bike has an ideal setup, which is probably untrue, and b) deprive me of the dissatisfaction – rectification – satisfaction – and repeat cycle that seems dissatisfying but in reality is part of the fun.

Close but not quite exact is a good thing – it always gives you an excuse to go to wherever you keep your bikes and fiddle with them. Measure, measure, compare, adjust, ad infinitum. It is indeed the basis of the lifelong pursuit of the virtually unattainable goal of perfection.

@frank

 

I’ve designed a contraption in my head that would work as a gig but it’s never going to be built.

True to my dual Dutch/Canadian nature, I fashioned a gig using a hockey stick, level, measuring tape, and, of course-duct tape. Cheap and works great, eh?

 Nice one Red

Done properly, this could keep me occupied with bike setup for at least one lifetime. But in reality, after several iterations, they’re all pretty close, and I don’t think I’m that sensitive to minor discrepancies anyway.

Being an engineer by education I have a fundamental desire to build a jig, but this would a) assume that one bike has an ideal setup, which is probably untrue, and b) deprive me of the dissatisfaction – rectification – satisfaction – and repeat cycle that seems dissatisfying but in reality is part of the fun.

Or stealing shit while no ones looking. It’s like the crowd photos where the one dude not smiling is the one who’s gonna shoot the president or something. How come he’s squandering his opportunity to stare at the Prophet’s bike with rapt attention like everyone else?

We work continually with our clients throughout the season, pre & post. Our clients range from category cyclists, olympians, juniors. The list is of weight, I assure you.

Thank you for your excellence in trolling.

Help!

Spikey

 

I’ve designed a contraption in my head that would work as a gig but it’s never going to be built.

True to my dual Dutch/Canadian nature, I fashioned a gig using a hockey stick, level, measuring tape, and, of course–duct tape. Cheap and works great, eh?

The only thing that makes me think that I have it easy is that I am average height and do not have any kinks in back, legs, knees or feet. For those that do I can not imagine the hassle in getting set up.

Let me summarize: for those less awesome than @Rob, too fucking bad. He’s awesome. You’re not.

On the saddle height spinning over 120 will make you bounce weather you are a little over or a little under your optimal height. Once adjusted, sometimes as little as 2-3 mm, up or down to find the sweet spot the bounce goes… assuming one has a good stroke! This works a treat on fixed and then transfer that height to the road bike and raise it a tad for more power.

Everyone without a magnificent stroke can tune out. Everyone else, train on a fixie and go up a tad for Maximum Awesome.

Eddy Merckx though was possibly obsessive about it because of back pain after his track crash in 1969, and, furthermore, is reported to have adjusted key dimensions during rides in order to relieve back pain, rather than in an effort to get the one perfect setting. Chris Sidwells in ‘A Race for Madmen’ quotes him as follows: ‘I started taking an allen key with me on every ride. At first I thought my pain might be due to a slightly incorrect position on my bike, so I changed the saddle height slightly, but the pain came back. I experimented some more and every time I changed the saddle, or the height or angle of the handlebars, the pain eased for a while’.

Yeah. We all have excuses for our obsession. Although I know this is true of Merckx to some degree. He’d also have his mech keep bars wrapped with different length stems to swap during races. But his obsession still points to one thing: a compulsive nature.

And who knows, maybe if he’d ridden a 20cm drop like I do his problems would have resolved themselves.

Some folks are sensitive to mm changes, some are not. I for one, am not.

After buying a new bike and setting it to match the old one I rode it for a a few months. Position fine. I then decided to drop the 5mm spacer out from under the stem that wasn’t there on the old one… I’ve been riding it like that for many many months. To me the position feels the same….

I envy you but also am sad you don’t get to experience the satisfaction of getting it right.

I was blessed with a freshly printed copy of LeMan’s book as a pedalwan and set my position up using his paraphrased genius. Since then (save for a tendancy to move my handlebars lower over the past decade) my position has remained steadfast enough for me to set up a new bike sans measuring tape just by riding it a bit and making the occasional adjustment. They all end up with identical set ups.

Its the one area of my life where a pathological sense of anal-retentiveness has not directed my behavior like, eh-hem, some of the others here.

I have bought a new copy recently which I love. That dude rules.

he espouses the virtues of riding the smallest frame possible and I’ve noticed since that his stem was always slammed. Stud.

does your fitting program study a rider over the course of serious riding for half a season or more? If not, you are telling yourself convenient stories about how comprehensively you understand the system.

As a scientist and mathematician who flirted with physics, I agree the idea of defining this stuff comprehensively is awfully tempting.

Couple of things here. Part of the reason the Prophet was always fiddling with his position was as a result of his 1969 crash at the Blois velodrome where he fractured a vertebra and twisted his pelvis. He admitted that subsequently he often rode in pain and was never the same rider again. One can only imagine his career had he been fully fit!

This.  That was apparently a really gruesome crash while in a motor-paced race.  The derny driver died in the accident, Merckx had head trauma and the infamous back injury.*

Thanks to some archived articles on this site, I’ve been fiddling with my saddle and bar positions lately.  I’m not exactly sure why, since I’ve been comfortable and low for years.  I actually had some (self proclaimed?) bike fit guru say I would generate more power if I wasn’t so low.  I found that absurd, since I’m barely hitting the Rules compliant 4cm drop.  Today’s suffer-fest proved that experimentation can be good or not so good.  Back pain all day, time to re-evaluate my changes.

*as cited in Eddy Merckx:  The Greatest Cyclist of the 20th Century.  Why is this not listed as required reading here?

His bike is getting the full measurement/adjustment protocol because His sideburns have already been treated to the same meticulous measuring and positioning. No stupid-looking beard here, just hirsuite awesomeness!

Hell, there’s not a single hair on his head that’s out of place!

Whoa! We’ve had discussions here about the massive inappropriateness of just sitting on another guy’s bike. Fucking around with moving things is beyond the pale. That is not funny, not now, not ever.  That would be the act of an soon-to-be ex-buddy.

When I first got into road cycling I laughed at people discussing cms or even mms of difference. Over a decade in the saddle, I now know how easily you can tell your bike is off if a pillar has slipped or a buddy has played a joke and moved something.

And the distraction of phones. GREAT story for ya – down the block from where I live a college kid was robbed at…hammer-point. I’m absolutely positive they were texting and also wearing ear buds, so fucking distracted they let a strange dude wielding a hammer get that close to them without even looking up. I’m continually amazed at how distracted and addicted people are by their phones. Sure I’m not the only one, but I’ve seen two people out at a restaurant hardly interact with one another the entire meal, just head down, playing away. Bonkers.

His bike is getting the full measurement/adjustment protocol because His sideburns have already been treated to the same meticulous measuring and positioning. No stupid-looking beard here, just hirsuite awesomeness!

Q: How many men does it take to find Eddy’s saddle height?

@wiscot I keep thinking a nice big drywall square would be just the thing for accurate setback measurement.

I use that, and a 48″ level lined with the center axis of the crank (level at the crank, drywall square to saddle).  If the frame geometry varies between bikes, this way of measuring always puts my knee is the same position over my foot.

Yet despite it all it did not always work so precisely for The Prophet. I like the bit in a Sunday in Hell where he gets a spanner from another team car and gives the saddle a bit of a whack before tightening and setting off again. The benefits of a newspaper strike impromptu stop if I remember correctly.

I was thinking of the exact same scene. He borrowed the spanner from Brooklyn no less IIRC.

@Simmo

Here is a good tip for measuring saddle setback.

push back wheel so it sits flush against a straight wall.

measure level from wall to your chosen reference point on saddle, I go for the tip

measure level from wall to centre of bottom bracket

take awat the difference, voila your saddle setback and not a marker pen or annoying plumb line in sight.

So easy and accurate, just make sure the wall is straight if using different walls.

That is good! Do you use a long level to get the horizontal? And so long as the wall isn’t too wonkey or as you say you use the same one, everyone is happy.

The plumb line is a it of a hassle. I’ve designed a contraption in my head that would work as a gig but it’s never going to be built.

Nice technique there! I have a contraption for measuring plumb line – a long (4′ I think) level with a base on one end. Set up next to the BB and measure back to the saddle tip. It’s also good for saddle/bar drop and saddle level too. I got a friend to make it up for me. So long as you work on the same area/floor when measuring different bikes, it’s all good.

@pneaumme Was going to bring up high-tech fitting methodologies to get a feel for what others thought. I’ve always done iterative ways of dialing in my fit, i.e. drop the handlebars by a spacer, go ride. Feel OK? Drop another spacer. Too low? Put it back on. Etc etc etc. It seems to work reasonably well, but I’m a biologist not a physiologist, so it might be nice to bring some biomechanics and actual quantification to bear on the problem. It would be, as they say, sexie.

And that’s exactly what the FIST fitting protocol is all about. You get on a fit bike – the fancy ones are even motorized and wireless – and pedal away. Fitter changes something until it’s too much, than backs off until it’s too little. Again and again, but a FIST fit will take an hour or three rather than several days – and you can “put your finger on it” much more easily if you can swap between two setups back and forth within seconds.

The only thing that makes me think that I have it easy is that I am average height and do not have any kinks in back, legs, knees or feet. For those that do I can not imagine the hassle in getting set up. My adjustments go to the millimeter for cleats and within +\- 5mm for saddle height. Stem and set back are more forgiving and the change is enjoyable.

I have found that pedal float helps me find the sweet spot for cleats, meaning that on the new Looks if I get close then listen to my feet then I will be able to set them gradually to where my foot goes most. Of course  Speed Play would negate all that.

On the saddle height spinning over 120 will make you bounce weather you are a little over or a little under your optimal height. Once adjusted, sometimes as little as 2-3 mm, up or down to find the sweet spot the bounce goes… assuming one has a good stroke! This works a treat on fixed and then transfer that height to the road bike and raise it a tad for more power.

Ah fitters and their gadgets. I have had three fits over the years. They have varied by 2 cm in saddle height and 1.5 cm in fore/aft; Never mind the guy who convinced me my pedals were too close together and stuck me on the oddest one off pedal system ever seen.

Needless to say I am now convinced that Merckx was correct here as in so much else; get a torque wrench, a tapemeasure,a level and a notebook and do the work yourself!

Totally agree, just tweak until you’re happy and ten tweak some more until you’re not. Then go back. When you go mo’fasta the posish is right.

Amazes me the eye for fit a guy like Guimmard had – all his riders looked just perfect. LeMond, Hinault, and Fignon being the best of his disciples.

Here is a good tip for measuring saddle setback.

push back wheel so it sits flush against a straight wall.

measure level from wall to your chosen reference point on saddle, I go for the tip

measure level from wall to centre of bottom bracket

take awat the difference, voila your saddle setback and not a marker pen or annoying plumb line in sight.

So easy and accurate, just make sure the wall is straight if using different walls.

That is good! Do you use a long level to get the horizontal? And so long as the wall isn’t too wonkey or as you say you use the same one, everyone is happy.

The plumb line is a it of a hassle. I’ve designed a contraption in my head that would work as a gig but it’s never going to be built.

After buying a new bike and setting it to match the old one I rode it for a a few months. Position fine. I then decided to drop the 5mm spacer out from under the stem that wasn’t there on the old one… I’ve been riding it like that for many many months. To me the position feels the same….

Here’s another headwreck thought when setting postitions on your muliple steeds, or with multiple shoes – cleat position on the shoe.

Its the one area of my life where a pathological sense of anal-retentiveness has not directed my behavior like,  eh-hem, some of the others here.

Needless to say I am now convinced that Merckx was correct here as in so much else; get a torque wrench, a tapemeasure,a level and a notebook and do the work yourself!

push back wheel so it sits flush against a straight wall.

measure level from wall to your chosen reference point on saddle, I go for the tip

measure level from wall to centre of bottom bracket

take awat the difference, voila your saddle setback and not a marker pen or annoying plumb line in sight.

So easy and accurate, just make sure the wall is straight if using different walls.

I don’t think my position is bad but I’m now very interested to find out if it could be better and why the technology says that. This fit will be only for the #1 as the fixed/ CX/ track and MTB are different beasts although the track and fixed are likely to be pretty close using similar measuring methods to Frank’s, perhaps slightly less OCD? Maybe not. I’m also part way through BC’s Head Physiotherapist Phil Burt’s Bike Fit book. It’s an interesting read and so far is backing up my own bike fit. It’s worth getting just to check out latest thinking and BC’s work on the subject.

I still check the mmeasurements every once in a while just to make sure they haven’t changed . . . .