The sudden jump in performance argument was LeMan’s argument as well. When he asked a certain COTHO this very question in a press conference, he was essentially threatened with legal action. Omerta. This is a deeply interesting, complex, and unsolvable issue.

There should be a Rule about dpoing analysis, discussion, conclusions, opinions, etc.

thought through that is… overload t’s o’s u’s and h’s

Its ok, they are pretty letters.

@frank
Sure. All good points. I’m not pointing the finger at you, Frank. In the absence of fact I guess it comes down to the viewer. I guess I’m more comfortable with being wrong as a naive believer. Cynicism never appeals to me – It doesn’t seem particularly clever or classy.

That is awesome. Hold on to it as long as you can!

I wont put my hand in the fire for them, as for any other sportsmen. However, I also would not accuse any rider of being on the juice. Everyone is innocent until proved guilty…

btw, I did not even remember my post, as I was on the beerjuice and I definitely tested positive (over 0,000000000000000000000000000000000000 5)

@frank
you should participate in the US elections, now Romney and Santorum are out. the way you write, convinces people (though I still think the same about the false(?) doping allegations).
You d have my V-ote!

I also think we’ve seen enough about the systematic doping regimens at teams and know enough about the histories of the team management who set the tone inside a team to not be outside reason to point at certain teams – especially the ones with recent (as in this season) doping cases – to suspect the other riders in the team. Certainly when we also know there are new drugs available. Can they act individually? Absolutely and I personally believe everyone is responsible for their own decisions. But we also know enough to realize that they often don’t act alone and are subject to peer pressure and cultural complacence.

And, as I said before, since we’re not in the system (most of us aren’t, anyway), we just don’t know and we aren’t informed to pass judgement on it. Which isn’t to say we don’t or that we don’t have opinions on the matter.

To your point, I think JVS is not subject to undue suspicion (aside from any normal amount you choose to or choose not to place on the peloton at large) because he has shown year after year to be close in Roubaix, but always in the service of another rider. Last year just happened to work out for him, but it didn’t show any atypical performance from other years.

Nuyens, on the contrary, is for me the typical example of who either does not dope at all or dopes a lot – I can’t decide which. His performances are very erratic with brief bursts of brilliance.

I have no opinion on Goss. Seemed to be in the right place at the right time, nothing crazy unusual. The rider doesn’t inspire me and I don’t think about him a lot.

The jury is out on J-Rod; I feel his rise was abrupt, but others have made other arguments and we’ll have to see if he holds on for a few more years or fades away.

Gasparotto, Iglinski – well, I think we’ve said enough about them and why we suspect them more than others. On the surface, they are classic examples of doping, but I certainly admit it is possible they just got it absolutely right and had amazing form and had their tactics perfect. That would be awesome.

I think its a significant problem for us (and the great masses) if we can’t believe in the integrity of “the man in the arena”. For the riders…its staggering (to me) if they haven’t learned that lies kept for years, then exposed, are more damaging than lies exposed immediately. Eg Ullrich. I expect this year’s samples will be kept until more advanced testing is available to determine their cleanliness. Gasparotto and Iglinsky know this as well as Goss and Boonen.

But I have a bigger problem with the ease in which we suspect riders depending on their nationality and team. The stats aren’t convincing and they don’t exactly present a case of “what has been will always be”. Individuals are capable of acting on their own, regardless of team and country.

JVS, Nuyens, Goss = no suspicion VS J Rod, Gasparotto, Iglinski. All unexpected yet we’re happy to call wheelsucker before doper. Why do Boonen and Gilbert raise no serious suspicion?

I’m an idealist. Give me a pos+ test and I’m happy to change my mind. Its the completely unsubstantiated speculation that bugs me.

Watch the moment of the break again. Boonen didn’t go, Terpstra did and Boonen followed his wheel. The fact that Terpstra exploded in the process shows how hard he went off, but I feel like he hasn’t received any kudos for picking just the right time to jump (just as Pozzato rolled off the front, so he would find it hard to latch on) and going so hard…

It was a beautiful move.

I don’t see how that makes Cancellara’s win “lame” though, even though I understand your “logic”. I am getting used to your oddly fanciful way of viewing racing though.

We should just assume that anyone who ever wins a race must be on the juice, and the rest of the field is squeaky clean too.

Comic value of your post aside, I fixed a technicality with it.

And here we get into the greasy underbelly of Cycling as entertainment (not sport): with a lack of evidence showing decreasing speeds, I think we have to assume the juice is still flowing. So then it comes back to Fignon’s beautiful statements about drugs “then” and drugs “now” – in his day, there were drugs that could win someone a race, but there were no drugs that could turn a domestique into a champion. Modern drugs do that, and that bothers me.

I like watching two riders fight for a win; I like for them to show weakness, and to overcome it. I like to see them battle and have one come out the winner. I don’t like to see a rider just walk away with a win without having to really suffer to get it. Its hard to see from television, of course, but thats what makes great racing for me.

In the end, I prefer that they don’t dope, but I’m not a Pro, I’m not in the environment, and I know enough about drug testing to know a lack of positive tests doesn’t mean they’re clean. Those things all tell me I can’t comment or make a judgement on whether they are doping, clean, or what. I can only judge the quality of the racing.

Moving past LBL, Roubaix is a great example. Faboo won a few years back in similar style to Boonen, but in my view, Boonen’s win was fantastic and Faboos was lame. Part of that is my preference for Boonen, but part is also the fact that Boonen struggled – he didn’t make much ground up for much of the break and even lost ground on the Carrefour secteur. It wasn’t until the riders behind decided they’d been beaten and started racing for 2nd place that he opened up a big gap. Faboo, for all his strength, just rode away – kept opening a bigger gap, and the race was over. It wasn’t exciting racing. Boonen’s win was nailbiting to the end, depsite the longer breakaway.

We should just assume that anyone who ever wins a race must be on the juice, and the rest of the field is squeaky clean.

Unless the winner is Belgian – because then they’re obviously at one with the V.

Having said that, I wouldn’t say he had made a sudden rise from nowhere. He’s got pretty consistent Ardennes form going back through to 2008, four top 10 finishes at grand tours, three Vuelta mountain jerseys and a bronze in the world championships.

In fact I’d almost say it suggests he’s not doping – if he had been then he would probably have done even better.

Yeah it was but Nibbles bonked. There was a big bunch only 15s behind him.

@ChrisO
J-Rod has really only been *this* good for two seasons. And his rise was quite sudden, if I’m not mistaken. But a few more years and I’ll change my tune; for now, though, he’s a bit Chiapuccian. Another rider I loved, by the way. (accusing someone of doping is not the same as saying I dislike the rider.)

JRod’s potential was recognized before he broke out; the problem for him was that he was toiling in Piti’s shadow at Caisse d’Epargne. Given their overlapping characteristics, it’s no wonder he wasn’t getting results. Having said that, I have a hunch that he doesn’t naturally have the engine to win monument-length races. But that’s nothing more than speculation on my part.

The Astana team’s rise this spring was, on the other hand, astounding, to say nothing of their winning riders. They came out of nowhere, when their team has already had a positive test and in the midst of reports of new drugs being around.

Personally, the doping thing is very complicated, and it’s hard to find a line to stand on with the matter. In the end, for me, what bothers me is the donkeys into thoroughbreds thing and riders who perform like this. How much time did he take on nibbles in the last 5km? Was it 45 seconds? Whatever it was, it was a lot to take out of one of the best riders in the world.

@ChrisO
J-Rod has really only been *this* good for two seasons. And his rise was quite sudden, if I’m not mistaken. But a few more years and I’ll change my tune; for now, though, he’s a bit Chiapuccian. Another rider I loved, by the way. (accusing someone of doping is not the same as saying I dislike the rider.)

@Marcus
I didnt like Veinos LBL win, but I like that doping little fuck as well. He’s got panache and loads of V. And we all know you can’t dope for V – that stuff comes from the heart.

He might have won it Kazakh-style by simply buying the win.

Disclaimer: I love Vino. Sorry Vino.

Are you joking ?

Gasparotto – 30 years old, won a couple of Giro stages 5 years ago and suddenly turns around with a win and a podium in one week.
Iglinsky – 31 years old, never podiumed at a classic let alone a monument.

If we have learned anything from the doping years it is that unbelievable results are just that – unbelievable.
Unless it is through tactical reasons riders in the later parts of their careers do not suddenly switch from also-rans to top dogs.

Rodriguez I would not lump into the same category, although I would not be susprised to be wrong, given his history of riding with suspect teams. Rodriguez has the riding and wining history and we know the Fleche finish is perfect for him. Which is also why I don’t suspect Boonen.

In their case even if they are using something it isn’t a case of turning a donkey into a thoroughbred.

Chappy McPappystackings and the Mrs. McPappystackings celebrating the shared podium placing, and wishing Bauke had bucked up a little more.

Chappy treats the Mrs well. Congrats Monsieur McPappy Stackings, those 5 points were not easy to come by. I had Voeckler and Danny-boy Martin in the right order but one place off the real money so it’s 2 wee points for me. Not enough to open a bottle of Abby Blond. At least I now understand what those Belgian beers are all about and just how pissed one gets when one goes out in Lille and has many of them out of big vessels.

oh come on, really? doubting about the honesty of Gasparotto’s, Iglinskiy’s and Rodriguez’ victories and the general performance of the Katusha and Astana team and not even considering second thougts on Boonen’s and his team’s performance in the Flemish Spring Season? I did not expect such biased opinions of Velominati members, who are supposed to be cycling adepts. it s not like they ve appeared out of nowhere…

Tommeke?!?!? We all know that he would never do any illegal drugs. Besides, I worship at the alter of Tommeke so I could never suspect him!

@ChrisO

On the down side… I wonder if and what the Cycling News live text commentary meant when they said “The Kazakh team has certainly had the winning formula in the Ardennes this week.”

“And in other news, there are several new, untestable variants of EPO on the market.”

Go to 51:40 in this podcast to learn about the 2 new undectable EPO variants.

Chappy McPappystackings and the Mrs. McPappystackings celebrating the shared podium placing, and wishing Bauke had bucked up a little more.

@frank

@Jarvis

J-Rod, and anyone on Astana: waiting for your positive tests is like waiting for a kettle to whistle: you know it will happen, but the fucking thing is just gurgling and wheezing but won’t just get around to actually boiling…

A quote today on cycling news from Veino himself, “He did it the Vino way! “. Not sure that if I was Iglinskiy that I would want Veino saying that in public!

So Nibali is 100,00 euros richer this morning than he was yesterday?

@Jarvis

J-Rod, and anyone on Astana: waiting for your positive tests is like waiting for a kettle to whistle: you know it will happen, but the fucking thing is just gurgling and wheezing but won’t just get around to actually boiling…

A quote today on cycling news from Veino himself, “He did it the Vino way! “. Not sure that if I was Iglinskiy that I would want Veino saying that in public!

So much loving Vincenzo this year – hope he descends like a man possessed in the mountains in the next few months and gets all the loot he deserves – definitely taken over from Fast Phil as the most exciting rider in the peleton so far this year

On a more positive note, I have to say I’ve enjoyed he spring classics. Being a Boonen fan, his success has been most welcome after a couple of dry years. Faboo’s wins in Bianche, Tommeke’s magnificent P-R, Oscar and Nibali’s balls-out attempts to win in Fleche and LBL. Great racing. Alas, I too look at Astana with dread. Just as I like to think things are getting cleaner, they come up with a couple of big wins. I mean, look at the condition riders are finishing in – totally spent. Wasn’t like hat a few years ago.

Maxim observes Rule V. And, he has awesome hair.

@frank
Yeah, kind of like lancing a saddle sore: hurts a wee bit but feels better once the pus is let out!

@frank

Although I am still waiting for JJ Cobo’s to boil.

Interesting article in a recent Cycle Sport mag, with Brian Holm’s wishes for the 2012 New Year. He wished for the UCI to put Interpol, FBI and Scotland Yard onto Cobo, because “there is no way that guy should be able to win a Grand Tour”. They were happy to print that, so it’s apparently no secret that his Vuelta win was, at a minimum, highly suspicious.

@Pedale.Forchetta

@RedRanger
“Not a fan of Bruyneel…” is enough for me.
I can just add that I wasn’t a fan even when he was a rider too.

Totally agree. The stunt he pulled on Indurain in 1994 was just not a classy way to ride. You learn a lot about a person by the way they ride in a group.

So, just hypothetically, what does crashing into a 3-timee RVV/3-time PR winner say about someone? I think it says they aren’t afraid of a reputation. It also says they didn’t hear the call to turn right (which could mean right or left when made by William). Just sayin’…

@ChrisO

On the down side… I wonder if and what the Cycling News live text commentary meant when they said “The Kazakh team has certainly had the winning formula in the Ardennes this week.”

“And in other news, there are several new, untestable variants of EPO on the market.”

@the Engine

Hopefully they’ll play Borat’s version of the Kazakh national anthem as punishment for such poor taste in haircuts.

And kit.

The Astana kit is an abomination – on a good day it looks like spare stuff from an amateur cross country ski team from a fairly remote part of an underpopulated American state.

Not that I’m bitter about him losing me points etc but did anyone spot the major Rule #82 faux pas as Iglinsky crossed the line?

Of course we shouldn’t be surprised as Astana riders are frequently seen wearing their turquoise and yellow team tights whilst actually riding in races>.

Although I am still waiting for JJ Cobo’s to boil.

@Jarvis

J-Rod, and anyone on Astana: waiting for your positive tests is like waiting for a kettle to whistle: you know it will happen, but the fucking thing is just gurgling and wheezing but won’t just get around to actually boiling…

Ahhh, someone finally actually goes there! I did not have the heart to say it.

J-Rod, and anyone on Astana: waiting for your positive tests is like waiting for a kettle to whistle: you know it will happen, but the fucking thing is just gurgling and wheezing but won’t just get around to actually boiling…

@eightzero
At least you’re letting it go!

@Pedale.Forchetta

@RedRanger
“Not a fan of Bruyneel…” is enough for me.
I can just add that I wasn’t a fan even when he was a rider too.

Totally agree. The stunt he pulled on Indurain in 1994 was just not a classy way to ride. You learn a lot about a person by the way they ride in a group.

I will resist the urge to comment on reasons why someone might not be a fan of a sports figure. Did he not do his time in the pain cave? Who cares how he got there etc etc?

I won’t say those things. Good on ya for having likes and dislikes.

@RedRanger
“Not a fan of Bruyneel…” is enough for me.
I can just add that I wasn’t a fan even when he was a rider too.

Totally agree. The stunt he pulled on Indurain in 1994 was just not a classy way to ride. You learn a lot about a person by the way they ride in a group.

@the Engine

Hopefully they’ll play Borat’s version of the Kazakh national anthem as punishment for such poor taste in haircuts

:::snort::: :-D

Chapeau!

Good showing from Dan Martin as well – had him in Fleche when he came sixth and didn’t put him today.

On the down side… I wonder if and what the Cycling News live text commentary meant when they said “The Kazakh team has certainly had the winning formula in the Ardennes this week.”

Answers on a postcard…

I saw that too and thought the EXACT same thing. Perfect wording on their part, hopefully it was intentional.

Another lame “no chase” by a group who should have known better. Nibbles couldn’t have done much more. Great ride Iglinsky. Loved the ‘look and go’ when he caught Nibs.

Yeah at the bottom of Saint Nicolas when they were all looking around at Gilbert to run the chase all I thought about was Faboo at last year’s Flandrian classics, some shit riding from the others just assuming the ‘strong’ man will carry them to the finish.

Good showing from Dan Martin as well – had him in Fleche when he came sixth and didn’t put him today.

On the down side… I wonder if and what the Cycling News live text commentary meant when they said “The Kazakh team has certainly had the winning formula in the Ardennes this week.”

Answers on a postcard…

Unfortunately I can’t watch an Astana rider get over the line without that thought running right through my head…

I was bummed when he got caught though. What a move!

@RedRanger

But on the up side Tommy V is showing fine form.

Is Nibbles riding the Giro? If so, he’s also showing great form.

I loved his move, and was really hoping it would stick. He drove it up to the top of the Stockeu (?) and saw everyone hesitate and made his move from 20 k out – not waiting for the finale. Beautiful move. Beautiful.

I read some were that he is gunning for a spot in the Giro, but I thought Basso was gonna be captain of the Giro squad and Nibali-V was gonna head up Le Tour team. could be all wrong though. one thing for sure, that guy knows how to make moves.

On the down side… I wonder if and what the Cycling News live text commentary meant when they said “The Kazakh team has certainly had the winning formula in the Ardennes this week.”

“And in other news, there are several new, untestable variants of EPO on the market.”

@the Engine

Hopefully they’ll play Borat’s version of the Kazakh national anthem as punishment for such poor taste in haircuts.

And kit.

Hopefully they’ll play Borat’s version of the Kazakh national anthem as punishment for such poor taste in haircuts

:::snort::: :-D

But on the up side Tommy V is showing fine form.

Is Nibbles riding the Giro? If so, he’s also showing great form.

I loved his move, and was really hoping it would stick. He drove it up to the top of the Stockeu (?) and saw everyone hesitate and made his move from 20 k out – not waiting for the finale. Beautiful move. Beautiful.

On the down side… I wonder if and what the Cycling News live text commentary meant when they said “The Kazakh team has certainly had the winning formula in the Ardennes this week.”

Answers on a postcard…

Anyone else think the way Iggy rode away on the climb to Ans (after a 20km chase) reminded an awful lot of Frank Vandenbroucke in 1999?

Congrats to @xyxax who takes the win over @GProsser and the bunch in the 5-way tie for third. Nice work!

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Iglinskiy looks like he pissed himself.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!

What you said.

@Nate

Iglinsky
Nibali
Gasparatto
Voeckler
Martin

Well foooook me! No points again! Painful!

A whopping one point myself. Probably some people are getting points on Nibali and Gasparatto.

The only thing worse than my picks is Gilbert’s performance.

But really, this LBL got me stuck on my seat for hours! Massive ride by Nibali & Iglinskiy!

Absolutely. Total balls award for Nibbles for going for it so far out! Pure class right there! Glad that he hung on for second place at least.

Iglinsky
Nibali
Gasparatto
Voeckler
Martin

Well foooook me! No points again! Painful!

Great final km’s though.

But really, this LBL got me stuck on my seat for hours! Massive ride by Nibali & Iglinskiy!

Astana owning the Ardennes Classics this year… Gasparotto gets another podium.

Any idea who took fourth and fifth?

Nice mullet Maxim.

I think mullets are still fashionable in Kazakhstan.

@Buck Rogers

Iglinskiy? Really?

my thought exactly

Kind of having a flashback “Veino” moment here.

Nibbles just can’t buy any freakin’ luck!

I dont think we Sicilians are known for luck.

Iglinskiy? Really?

my thought exactly