Look Pro(phetic): Muck Around with Your Seatpost
I have a friend who is borderline OCD. He’ll sometimes wash his hands dozens of times a day, doesn’t like sticky stuff, cats drive him to antihistamine hell and there is a place for everything, with everything in its place. This can be annoying, not only for those around him, but especially for himself. It’s not a great place to be.
The upside is his bikes are always meticulously maintained, fully Rule compliant, or they are in a state of tear-down having last week’s grease freshened up and each ball bearing individually polished. He’s gotten it under control quite admirably these days, and while a chip in the duco of his beautiful steel frame will still understandably piss him off, there’s not the slightest hint of sending it back to Italy to be re-sprayed by the 78 year old artisan who originally painted it, who inconveniently happened to retire in 1984. But you can rest assured the touch-up job he’ll do himself is of paintshop standard.
But I’ve never seen him muck around with his seatpost height. Not once it’s set, anyway.
This poses the question: did The Prophet have OCD? To this observer it seems so, if numerous viewings of Le Course En Tete and A Sunday in Hell are any reliable indicator. The guy was constantly fiddling with his seatpost height. His mechanic must’ve been ready to throw his hands in the air proclaiming “Merde, Eddy! I’ve measured it three times already! Why do you not trust me?”
It seemed to matter little to Eddy that poor Charly had adhered to the numbers scribbled on the lid of his toolbox, taken the slide rule and spirit level to every possible surface and angle, and used his impeccable line of sight to position the saddle just right, exactly where it was requested to be. “How’s that Eddy?” “Is perfect.” “Then why are you borrowing a spanner from RDV’s team car? Hmmm?”
If he wasn’t adjusting his saddle, he was adjusting his stem. If he wasn’t adjusting his stem, he was squirting water from his bidon onto his brakes. If he wasn’t doing that, he was simply laying down the law. The law of The Prophet.
Obsessive? Yes. Compulsive? For sure. Did it affect his ability to waste all comers? Not likely.
[dmalbum path=”/velominati.com/content/Photo Galleries/[email protected]/merckx terryn/”/]
I raised my saddle in the process of dropping the bars a year or so ago. 2-3mm at a time, riding it for a week, until I noticed a twinge in the IT band, then dropped it back to the previous setting and marked it. Haven’t touched it since. I have a buddy who loves to mess with his saddle, while for some reason ignoring all the squeaks, creaks and shrieks that emanate from his drivetrain. Can be a bit annoying, until I realize how PoS-compliant my well-tuned Campy gruppo runs. Then I just smile.
re; Eddy: Back when I was teaching SCUBA (not a profession for the faint of heart BTW), watching who was fiddling with gear pre-dive was a good forward indicator of who was going to give me problems during the dive. I’d say Eddy’s tinkering was as much coping strategy as gamesmanship, or placebo.
Exit question: Who on the Keeper’s Tour is going to have the balls to ask The Prophet, given the chance?
@motor city
I have that on mine too, but I am also shortsighted/blind without my glasses on, so can’t read the numbers on it (hence the tape!!)
@The Oracle
Ha! Thankfully it doesn’t get cold enough to need one of those here…
@tomb
I hear ya, brother. Been dealing with a neck/shoulder/arm issue which has kept me off the bike since September. Chiropractor, PT, dry needling, not much progress. My GP authorized an MRI last week, and it turns out I have a bulging cervical disc pressing on nerve roots. Seems to be the worst when in a riding position, even on the tops, so eager to see the Neurospine guy Wed to see what progress I can make. Coupled with the osteoarthritis that flared up in my knee in November I’ve replaced good workout and nutrition habits with eating crap so am up about 9 kilos since October. Time to get my act together….. And hope I won’t have permanent limitations to my riding.
The problem is one of driver awareness, not chromosomal. As many, if not more, of the Cyclist-Driver incidents happen with men behind the wheel.
As cyclists, we have a responsibility to try to educate drivers on what is dangerous. I’ve even had a chat with drivers at lights along the lines of “I realize you didn’t know it, but what you did back there put me in great danger, that could have ended badly for both of us.” Some of them don’t respond, but its more likely to be effective than getting into a screaming match and reinforcing their notion that Cyclists are assholes and should be driven off the road.
More on Urban Riding (which is the bulk of my riding here in Seattle.)
@frank
Very nice. My choices; black tape on a black carbon post, black Sharpie dot on a silver ti or alloy post
@sgt
I’ll do it.
@Brett
As a Dutchman with Flemish Aspirations when it comes to beer, cobbles, and bergs, I will happily reignite the decades old battle between Merckx’s Flemish/Wallonian loyalties. In a Sunday in Hell, he is speaking Flemish to his mechanic (Julian DeVriese).
In any case, despite Merckx’s lingual preference, I believe he generally spoke to Julian in Flemish, and they Flemish just use the English version of Merde, so he would have just said, “Shit, Eddy!”
@frank
in those days it probably was, ‘godverdomme!’ or ‘miljaar!’
as @oli said in the first 3 posts: after that crash in 1969, he was never comfortable on a bike. just pain, which he claimed made him a stronger rider… I can only agree if you see his palmares
@Gianni
it s easy actually, Flemish in the North of Belgium (Vlaanderen), French in the South (Wallonie), mainly French in Brussel and German in some villages in the East of Belgium.
I hadn’t realised that Eddy was actually gonna be there and give you guys the tour personally! Remember to take a gift jersey for him and get a nice photo, K?
76.5cm, top of saddle to crank centre using a flite which I have on all my bikes.
@teleguy57
Do you frequent telemarktips?
@minion
99.5 for me.
@Marko
Wow! That’s 6cm longer than my entire inseam! My seat height by that measurement is 825mm, and I’ve got very long legs…
@Oli
Oops, I should have read minion’s post more carefully, mine’s 99.5 to the pedal spindle (which is where I measure to) which makes it 81.5 to crank center. I’m not as tall as I make myself out to be on the internet. Go figure.
@Marko
Fuck me, am I the shortest here? Mine’s 71cm. That’s obvious if you check my #1, 2 & 3 photos in “The Bikes”.
Wow. You guys are all pretty tall. Using that measurement, mine is 75.0 cm. That’s kind of a silly way to compare, though, since it doesn’t take into account crank length, pedal stack height, or shoe sole thickness.
@Marko
Marko, I used to hang out there more. Haven’t even been on the teles this season; while there’s skiable snow 150 miles north, brown grass and ice here has left me less than motivated — even if my body wanted to cooperate.
Are you over at ttips?
@teleguy57
That’s cool. I don’t tele nearly as much as I used to since I moved back to the midwest (nordic xc and skate is where it’s at – tele for occasional fun but not like it used to be). Once upon I time, years ago, I was over at ttips a lot. I went by Plasticfantastic over there. Mitch and Big Tim have set up a great community.
Great one Brett
buddy and I were talking bout this tonight, incidently. We were just chewing the fat, talking all things cycling, Boonens condition and all.
We soon plummeted into the ethereal matters of bike fit, mainly the saddle position and all you are talking about
Here is a question I asked him, and with us both having weathered years in the saddle, and pages of notes on past bike positions, we are stumped a bit on this.
Why do we measure from the BB to the saddle rails/center-top, why isn’t it to the bottom of the crank with the pedal in the 6 o’clock position or in the position that is parallel to the seat tube for a total distance.
Because as I see it, measureing like everyone does, to the center of BB is variable, it doesn’t take into account leg length…completely as it would be ‘mid shin’, would not account for femur length/tibia length/saddle position
Having the Damocles coming, I am measuring like the OCD Brett mentioned, measuring, remeasuring, measuring, remeasuring
Calculating, pursing the Holy Grail in positioning
Then I have another buddy son of a bitch that ‘goes by feel’, and nails it and smokes everyone in the group rides and races does very well.
so, what am I missing on that point with saddle/BB measurements? Or do you master cyclists have hints that may help?
@Souleur
You know why there are so many competing formulas for saddle height? Because there is no absolute right one. Most methods, especially the ones where you calculate saddle height based on inseam x magical constant, don’t take into account all kinds of things. Look at the LeMond/Guimard method, for example, where they have a constant to three decimal points (!), but then ignore crank length, pedal system, etc. It’s absurd!
This is one of my favorite topics, especially the history of how all of these methods came to be. Ultimately, no formula can tell you exactly how high to set your saddle (ask The Prophet). At best, they can get you kind of close. I have my own method, as does everyone else here. I wouldnt dare say it’s better than theirs, but it works for me. Once you have it, though, you should definitely measure it in order to duplicate it…
@Calmante is (mostly) right again. I use the LeMond formula as a baseline because it happens to work for me, rather than adapting myself to his formula. I then add or subtract for different pedals and/or cranks (as LeMond/Guimard clearly advise, using 170mm cranks as their baseline). This number is an easy reference point for me that is indelibly etched into my mind – this means if I’m travelling I don’t need anything written down, which has proven handy.
You’d be surprised both at how often the LeMond Formula works perfectly, but also you’d be surprised to see how wrong it can be for some folk!
@Bianchi Denti
Ha, no way sunshine. I’m the grade A midget around here.
70.2cm C/L BB spindle to top of saddle.
Meaningless I know in light of the previous comments re pedal stack height, crank length etc. (170’s FTR).
Re Calmante’s thoughts about formulas, when I first started racing, I was told that my saddle height should be set at 109% of my inseam measurement. I’ve recently checked, just out of curiousity, and I find that I’m pretty close to that.
@Souleur
Many people do measure it that way and, so long as you’re consistent and have a steady hand and eye, it’s a great method. Although in practical terms it is little different to measuring to the centre of the b/b and adding crank length. ;-)
@Calmante
@mouse
And there is a fair amount of art as well as science. Coupla years back i went and got a full video fit done – measured power on each leg, etc. etc. Changed everything from pedal width (X-factor? New Speedplays) to seat height etc. The result? The power (and I use that term in its broadest sense) I was “generating” in my new position was substantially higher whilst on the jig. Only problem was that it didn’t feel great – persisted with it for about 4 months, riding like a busted arse. Got a new bike – got another fit (done more on look/feel). Instantly felt much better.
The conclusion – objective measures aint the be all end all.
@Souleur, @Calmante
Yeah, and physiology, pedalling style (Pantani, toe down or Lemond heel down, that will buy or steal a couple of cm’s from your saddle height, spinner or grinder), and all those things you mention all come into play. So cool – position is one of my favorite things to obsess over as well.
Which is actually also why one of the things that drives me nuts when someone looks at a picture of a bike and starts saying things like, “wow, that’s a lot of drop/not enough drop”…aside from the aesthetic, of course, which can be an independent observation from what the same person might recommend for the rider’s actual position. But its impossible to say if the bars/saddle/whatever is right or wrong without knowing a lot about the cyclist – which we rarely do.
But Souleur, to your points about crank down etc, the whole system is rife with error. Seat tube angle will change everything, regardless of whether you put the crank down at 6 o’clock or parallel to the seat tube. Then get the crank exactly in the same potion every time and measure to the exact same spot on the saddle every time.
Not to mention that once you start riding, the reach and bar height will also effect the angles of your body and effect how everything feels (lots of stretch might, for example, tighten up your hips and make you feel higher/lower etc). Bike fit is about the whole package – all the aspects affect all the others.
It’s fucked – completely.
I was taught to measure from the tip of the saddle to the center of the BB by my Cycling Sensei, but that also assumes the same saddle. But that’s not bad if you already have the setback right because then you’re measuring from a definable spot.
But this whole thing is why I bought two frames by the same manufacturer with the same geometry for the bikes I ride the most seriously (rain and racing bike). And even then, because the alu frame is hand made, its two fucking mils shorter in reach than the R3 through error. Fucking hell. Thankfully, I can fudge the seat by a mil and then its only one mil off and I only feel that for a few minutes when I switch bikes.
Even with this ultra-obsessive approach (same frame, geo, saddles, bars, pedals, crank length), its still fucking hard to get it identical since there is so much error in everything – you need a perfectly flat surface to plumb down the setback on the saddle, or if its not flat, you’ll have to have the bike in EXACTLY the same spot with the same angle lean against the wall. It still took me tinkering for a month to get my positions on two identical bikes close enough that I can’t really tell the difference.
But I can still tell the difference, when I try to. Like I said. Fucked. Completely.
@frank
All great points.
@Oli
Bah humbug. None of this is any replacement for superstition, poor eyesight and a dodgy measuring stick. Take your bike outside next time it rains, turn it 45 degrees to the south, mark where the shadow of the top tube junction falls on the ground and sacrifice a small woodland creature to the gods on that spot. Then adjust your saddle so it’s not so low your knees hurt, and not so high your arse hurts.
Oh, man, I love this topic… Mostly because it truly is fucked, as frank said. I’m going to throw out another neat little tidbit; femur/tibia ratio. This is pretty interesting, and LeMond actually writes about it a bit in his book, in regard to a (possible) mechanical advantage to riders with longer femurs. However, no one really ever talks about how it affects saddle height. Here is a little drawing I made to illustrate this…
Mind you, this doesn’t take into account pedaling style, as @frank mentioned, or foot size, which also exaggerates the effect of pedaling style.
@Calmante
BTW that also means same length crank, sta, pedals and saddle. Might change a few mm depending on the padding and condition of the saddle but it’s for comfort more than anything. If it’s uncomfortable change it, but that’s the baseline I stick to when setting up bikes.
@frank
You may hate me for this, but based on those pics, the hoods on the Soloist look to be at a slightly higher angle than on the R3…
*runs, hides & expects a serious demotion to follow*
@Calmante
holy crap, after reading about femur/tibia ratio and all the other attention to measurements and ratios, i just might be (too bad, i’m sticking around anyway). i pedal, and then i adjust, and then i pedal, and then i adjust, and then, when i feel like i am getting the best out of body and bike working together, i use it. each bike i have is different, so each bike has it’s own seat position. perhaps this isn’t the right way, but it works for me, and i’m far too lazy and impatient to figure out “the right way”, and too stupid to notice it’s not optimal.
oh,i forgot to mention…. i think i may have learned something from all that reading, and i just might someday work on getting the perfect position, or as close to it as possible. seriously, you guys amaze me, and are awesome.
@silkrider
If it works for you, who can argue?
@Mikael Liddy
Nah, the pics were taken a year apart. They are at the same spot in reality. But keen eye. Good on ya.
Just measured my saddle height the way suggested here from center of BB to top of the saddle. As a demonstration of why I don’t like this approach, it measures up to a cm differently based on where I measure to, and depending on how I sight across, I can easily add another .5 to 1 cm.
This is a tricky business, but I think you get better results first getting your setback and then measuring to the center of the saddle rail at a fixed point on your saddle. And it seems you almost have to have the same saddle to ever get anywhere close.
In any case, my height measures 87 cm that way! As stated before, if I was a chick, I’d be hot. Instead I look like a girafe at water.
I measured 68cm (rounding up) if I interpreted the methodology correctly. “Top of saddle” is top through the seat post? The first meeting of the DLV will be soon. That would be the Dwarf Leg Velominati. The silent (except for me) majority. At least, I like to think so.
@frank
As @itburns says, it’s hard to get different numbers if you measure in a straight line from the centre of the b/b (or crank if that’s your bag) through the imaginary centre line of your seat tube and seat post.
Setback is affected by seat height as much as seat height is affected by setback, so neither is better than the other to be done first. Once you have both close enough then it’s time to tweak it all, rechecking as you go in light of their mutual affect on each other.
As we’ve established, this is just a starting point anyway, so the precision comes later with experience and trial and error.
@itburns
Would the first meeting of the DLV come to order? As the tallest of the Dwarves, I nominate @itburns as the Chair.
All interesting points you make about position @frank and @Calmante.
I seem to have found what works for me at the moment on my road bike. This has been achieved through a proper fit (BG Fit in this case) at my LBS. Interestingly it wasn’t significantly different to what I had previously at that point in time.
What I have found quite interesting is how the relationship of the saddle fore aft position affects the vertical distance from top of saddle to the C/L of pedal spindle. As the saddle is brought forward, the saddle moves up to compensate for the change in the relationship to the BB.
Long ago, I subscribed to the exaggerated saddle setback displayed by the pros in the late 80’s, and set up my mountain bike to reflect this. (note that for the past 10 years I have been riding mtb exclusively, back to riding on the road only in the past year or so)
What I’ve found though is that I’ve been gradually adjusting my position such that the saddle sits pretty much dead centre of the seatpost. This caused me all sorts of grief when I first began to adjust it, as I found that I was recruiting different muscles in my quads, and effectively had no power. Over a period of about 6 weeks though, I found that my body adjusted and had more power at my disposal than before.
Anyhoo, aside from rambling on about my experience, my point is that saddle for aft position is relatively important, of course. However, I do find that depending on what sort of effort that I’m putting in, my relative position on the saddle changes dramatically. I tend to more on the front during high cadence, high output efforts, whilst on more raw power, puncheur/roller type efforts, I’m more to the back of the saddle. Certainly when i’m spinning away at a normal effort, I’m sitting dead centre.
I guess what I’m contemplating in a roundabout way is what I’ll describe as “The Princess and the Pea Principle” in relation to bike fit. I feel like I’ve got my position about right. I notice that when I switch between bikes, it doesn’t matter a great deal as they are quite similar. This has been achieved by tweaking over time but I haven’t gone to vernier calipers to verify anything, and don’t feel like I need to. It feels ‘about’ right, and that’s good enough for me.
Hmm, Seems like I’ve just called @frank a princess.
I’ll get me coat…
@frank
Shit, now all this talk of bike fit has me sweating like a blind lesbian at the fish counter.
A brief history,
MTB #1
Please forgive me Merckx the Rule #29 EPMS violation, this bike was built pre Pre-V days.
MTB #2
Neither MTB’s are anywhere near the same setup whilst also being miles away from Road #1.
Hence both MTB’s are being sold to pastures new, far too little use since the road bike joined the stable and the different geometry of all three is driving me nuts.
Now, when I go and order my new frame I will be encoureaged by my LBS to have a bike fit done. My feelings are, if I do, and I don’t like it, I will simply divert to my road bike geometry. But, it will drive me insane wondering why the bike shop is telling me that what they are suggesting is the optimum for me, based on their vast experience.
I think I would be best in ignoring the bike fit, for fear of lying awake at night wondering why a specialist feels I have my setup different to his suggestions, albeit a very experienced guy (ex-racer, long time shop owner, universally far more knowledgable than I will ever be) and going with a geometry that matches my current road bike.
The new bike will be used for CX and general mucky / wintry riding. Would that change my ideal setup much ? Can’t see why, a well set up bike should be comfy for all riding ?
I have an image of the Keepers’ Tour, on the first morning…
We get the rental bikes and everyone pulls out micrometers, plumb-bobs, pre-marked tape measures, protractors and torque wrench sets and spends two hours making minute adjustments.
@SimonH
Mountain bike geometry should not mimic road geometry. It’s not 1990 anymore. They are totally different beasts, especially in the ways the mtb has evolved over the last ten years. Stems are shorter, bars wider, head angles slacker. Even a cross bike is going to need different set up to your roady.
If you’re buying a mtb, just get the right frame size, get a short (50mm-80mm) stem and a nice, wide (710mm) bar and you can ride anything. And unless you are racing XC at a competitive level, forget lightweight hardtails. Get some travel and actually enjoy riding.
PS that Lynskey Lefty looks sweet!
@ChrisO
You better have done that shit before the first morning, or you’ll have a two hour deficit to make up!
@ChrisO
Ummm. I was planning to take a tape measure, plumb bob, and my own seat to do just that (I assume the dudes will have tools). Now I just feel self conscious.
@SimonH
Them’s some nice bikes, Simon!
@ChrisO
I knew there was I reason why the laser levelling and plumb-bob kit I saw at the builder’s merchant was something that I needed even though I’ve no intention building anything.
@frank
BB to top of saddle for yours truly: 86.4
So that would be me on the left.
@mouse
I really like the principles behind the BG Fit system and Pruitt’s theories on bike fit, for the most part. Good stuff, in my opinion. Especially since there is some built-in tolerance for positioning based on fitness, flexibility, and personal preference. As a substitute for a goniometer; a VMH, a camera, and a protractor is a decent alternative.@frank
I guess now we know who has the gender identity disorder…
Speaking of the Prophet, these popped on Michael Barry’s site today. Lots to like about both of them…
Motor-pacing or about to devour the team car?
What’s with the battle scars? Apart from being awesome!
(Black bar tape, by the way: The Prophet has spoken.)
@minion
+1 my method too, I have strong Celtic cycling roots.
@SimonH
You have great taste in steeds!
@Calmante
Nice one Calmante, you wear the positive well and I couldn’t agree more. If you find a method that makes you perfectly comfortable for 200K’s and you can repat it then stick with it!
Typo alert – “repeat”
@Steampunk
Steamy – I thought that was you at a winter training camp… I was jealous but now see that the Prophet is morphing into a Yoda like agelessness!